AirwaySim

 Recently a member of QualiTeam Alliance received an email from a competitor who weren't to happy with the performance of our member.
basically he tried to black mail him.

Sami, I was left baffled by your reply to the member of our alliance. Is the one who black mailed our member a friend of yours? Or you just don't give squat about keeping up some kind of moral code in the game? Or you consider this the wild west where each player has to fight for himself and there are no rules. Or at least no one to make sure the rules are respected? Or you just don't give s*** about the small players in this game?

I must admit, at this time I am worried it is the last that is true. I completely lack to see the administrator who makes sure rules are respected.

I have still a tiny little fate in you keeping up standards and morals in here. The black mail comitted by the comptetitor is by NO MEAN acceptable. But being an administrator and giving squat is no good either. Yet I have a little faith in you doing the right thing.

I hope you will not prove me wrong. But if I fail to see some proper action... .Then I am out of here. Not a threat. Just how it is. I don't hope it'll get to this point. But I will have no hesitation. I will leave. A lack of response is showing support to this blackmail which is against the rules. By your own words. But not supporting your rules.... well that is a different story

completely not something for the forums.

Has it come to your mind sami is away for some days or only has time to do the most important things due to an illness or something like that?

My experience is, sami answers very fast and competent. And to be honest, I used some strategys to annoy an opponent but within the rules and even on that sami reacted in 48hrs and asked me to stop this due to fair play - and this was nothing like bashing smaller airlines or blackmailing somebody etc.

Once I put in my livery box 'Way better than 'XYZairways'' (my main competitor) and I got asked to remove it, so I did...
Although I didn't really see it as a issue or a direct threat towards the user/airline I still removed it as the XYZairways CEO emailed Sami saying that he was offended....  I think this site is amazing, I continue to visit it after many years of loyalty and still continue to spend lots of money on creds ;D - sorry got a little carried away and don't really know why I just said that paragraph ???

But I guess it would depend on what the 'blackmail' was... If its a minor thing, get over yourself. And to be honest, same if its a major-ish thing because people in this world are starving to death and dying of many diseases and illnesses...

I am sure the administrators done there job, and as swiftus has said, maybe not that appropriate for the general forum...

Well... I don't agree with this not to put on the forums...
1st he neither names airlines nor
2nd players

and 3rd, I think this issue belongs to the public, since it could be any of us blackmailed. Some might even overgo our beloved admins, and instead take (legal) actions themselves (just to show up a "worst-case-scenario"). Also, Sandager is right, by stating, that if this is allowed, what will come next... if no morale is hold up, not even by the Admins of the site, where will it lead? this is the fastest way to anarchy!

This for now. When I am (hopefully) less drunk tomorrow, I'll maybe update this here.

Jona L.

 I don't see the need to consider illness or being busy or other imaginable scenarios. Sami replied pretty fast to an email sent by the member of QualiTeam Alliance.

I deliberately did not mention any names. Sami knows, we knows, the competitor knows.

the reply from Sami basically said "yes it is against the rules, you deal with it."

I am sorry, but not quite good enought to me. If Sami are busy at work, and believe me I know how busy he can be. We are in the same business. any other reply could have been sent. But a reply basically saying "I don't care" about it is just not quite what I expected

Quote from: Sandager on August 15, 2010, 07:29:10 AM
But a reply basically saying "I don't care" about it is just not quite what I expected

I don't really see it as a I don't care. I see it as a 'fight your own battles' thing...

In someways this thread could be seen as an attempt at bullying or blackmailing Sami into solving the problem through questioning his judgement in open forum and asking if he's a friend or not.   

This type of questioning of motives should be done in private, not public. Whilst you have not named the airline you have deemed guilty, you have openly questioned Samis motives, basically accusing him of allowing cheating to continue.  This is not fair on Sami, nor the game.

Quote from: Minto Typhoon on August 15, 2010, 09:20:21 AM
In someways this thread could be seen as an attempt at bullying or blackmailing Sami into solving the problem through questioning his judgement in open forum and asking if he's a friend or not.   

This type of questioning of motives should be done in private, not public. Whilst you have not named the airline you have deemed guilty, you have openly questioned Samis motives, basically accusing him of allowing cheating to continue.  This is not fair on Sami, nor the game.

*thumbs up*. good point......

Let me start by saying I am not one of the "plank owners" here, merely a noob player.

What I see is your own attempt to "blackmail" Sami. It appears as though you want to use this forum to force Sami into an action that you agree with. in one word.."atrocious"

I agree with Swiftus and other..this type of conduct and its associated drivel should never have been made public, but since you did, I think it only good enough to suffer your own medicine.

I am new..but I know wrong when I see it...I don't need any Nav aides or a "glass cockpit" but for my money..and yeah we all pay to be here n play...the second sin is way outta line moreso than the first. Just my lil tidbit.

Quote from: Sandager on August 15, 2010, 07:29:10 AM
... Sami replied pretty fast to an email sent by the member of QualiTeam Alliance.
...
the reply from Sami basically said "yes it is against the rules, you deal with it."

Then we need much more information to be able to say some useful to this.

At the moment my feeling says me, there is a big part of the story we don't know.....

I am going to open up routes to your base since you are having a cry.

i like black mail. adds fun to the game. It is a game right. I agree with sami. From my part. don't get angry, get even. Black mail them back. But don't come on here and cry.

If you find any possible rule violations please report them via PM or email to me, not the forums. Thanks.

For this case and the original post, unfortunately I have no idea on what case you are referring to, or which post and where. I've had multiple PM's over the last week and have been away so cannot remember off the top of my head. But still all discussion on possible rule violations will happen via private methods since in many cases a possible rule violation is still in lines with the rules (and it wouldn't be beneficial for players to accuse others in public without all the facts).


So, ==> PM with details if needed please.

Quote from: Sandager on August 14, 2010, 09:53:05 PM
Is the one who black mailed our member a friend of yours?

No.

Quote from: Sandager on August 14, 2010, 09:53:05 PM
I must admit, at this time I am worried it is the last that is true. I completely lack to see the administrator who makes sure rules are respected.

A reply in less than 1 hr is ignorance? If there has been some violations you cannot really expect all to be done in less than a day? Since normally one-sided actions cannot be taken and the other guy has to be asked too if needed. And in this case too there was nothing urgent and nothing like someone flying 400% seats in a route that would be obvious and clear.

Quote from: Sandager on August 15, 2010, 07:29:10 AM
the reply from Sami basically said "yes it is against the rules, you deal with it."

I did not reply like that, don't put words in my mouth, thanks. However as my reply was short it could have been misunderstood. But the person who was communicating with me about this did not say anything about that. So why are you pushing it then, cannot understand.

Quote from: mikk_13 on August 15, 2010, 11:33:49 AM
i like black mail. adds fun to the game. It is a game right.

No, it's not part of the game.



To clear up confusions, a summary:

* A player has approached me (evening of 13th Aug.) since he was in a feeling that other airline had blackmailed him on route coordination/competition, in other words the other airline wanted this particular airline to stop expansion in airport x and wanted to share market etc in return of "peace and quiet". The tone of the message (which was fwd'd to me) was unclear so to me this looked like a blackmail "to do this, .. or else", and the co-op he suggested was something that was not possible to be done either.

* I replied 30 mins after I got that message, stating literally "Hi, Well if you check the manual / game rules, all intimidation and unfair play is forbidden.. So I guess you can say that to him and tell him to refer the rules/manual ;)"    ..this because very often the text based communication is understood in the wrong way since english is not the native language of all players, and tone of message is often unclear, and I had a feeling that there may have been miscommunication, and I did not know the whole story just based on one message. So, told the player to advise the other player that any threats or similar are against the rules.

* The person who contacted me and to whom I replied sent a message back to me with some additional info; but I did not reply to that one anymore as there was nothing to be done at that time. (I do not know if he replied to that other player as I instructed)

* Then a third person, Sandager, sent a PM to me of the same issue yesterday, where he stated all the same things and said that he had asked the person #1 to send me a message but since he is not online he will send that for me .. (actually person #1 had already contacted me and I had already replied)

* After that I don't hear anything from either of them until this thread was opened today and I am accused of various things. This was some 48hrs after I got the first message/complaint ..

* Today I sent another msg to check "if there are any problems" to person #1 (who was the one to contact me initially), and he replied that there are no problems anymore. I also contacted the person who was accused of this blackmail and he explained the background and intents of his message which were not to blackmail the other airline but rather to agree of certain routes etc. as his airline was rapidly expanding and needed more room before his country joins EU and allows more possibilities later on. However it's again word against word and I cannot be sure of the intentions of course, but if he says that, then it's fine by me.


Do understand that all "blackmails", or even hints of "getting troubles unless you do this and that" is forbidden. That is in the rules. But like I mentioned in previous post in many cases when I receive a complaint about a "huuuge rule violation" the actual case is different and rules have not been broken.

And this is also why all complaints are done via private channels and it is forbidden to start accusing other players in public.

And to be clear there will be no "bans on request" or anything like that. All complaints that are received are checked / investigated as needed and this does not happen in hours, but rather in days, as single side of the story is usually not enough. If there are rule violations they will be assessed and penalties are given if deemed necessary.



Thread is open for possible comments.

Regarding the original message of this thread, I believe that what happened was pure miscommunication, definitely. I don't really think Sandager meant to offend anyone to whom concerns the content of the original msg.

I am a member of Qualiteam Alliance. This topic was openly discussed at our private forum (as a request of advice) so I had access to the translated msg of "blackmail". From my interpretation, and if that kind of msg would have been directed to me, I would have understood it as a moral harassment, masked as a proposal for a peace treaty. Things like "your maximum share at airport X must be <y%" or "you don't fly to destination x or y" sound like a bit too harsh and cannot, in my humble opinion, be understood as a fairplay.

Sami shouldn't have the need to enforce any kind of rules to keep this kind of situation from happening, the subjects involved should be mature and responsible enough to understand whether their actions are morally reprehensible or not.

This is crazy.

Guys, relax. Its a game.

Quote from: filipebravo on August 15, 2010, 06:21:00 PM
Sami shouldn't have the need to enforce any kind of rules to keep this kind of situation from happening, the subjects involved should be mature and responsible enough to understand whether their actions are morally reprehensible or not.

Thats what I said earlier, Fight your own battles.

Most people won't fight their own battle.

Somebody hogs slots at Heathrow? It's ok as long as he does. If you start doing the same thing, he will faster complain to sami than you can delete all the slots...


But if you find somebody who fights back, it could be much more fun than "normal and friendly" playing  :)

I again refer to certain problems inherent in this game...

I don't like inter-player intimidation.   That's just wrong.

My philosophy is: Try to solve the problem by yourself, if you do not succeed.... Then ask a admin for help. Or something like that  ;D

It's just not possible for Sami to deal with all the things like blackmailing/bullying or something like that all the time. The man needs sleep, food and off time too you know. He's a human! Not a machine!

Personally if i need Sami's help and i write a request. Then i just wait for a reply. If i don't get it quick then i believe that Sami doesn't got the time at the moment, and that i will respect.

It isn't that hard.

Lock this thread!

 I really feel for the

Hi,

"Well if you check the manual / game rules, all intimidation and unfair play is forbidden.. So I guess you can say that to him and tell him to refer the rules/manual"

I guess you can write and tell him that. I guess you can. as in I don't care. There is no other way I can read that reply. MY apologies for that

I see you accepting it is not a fair way of doing business and I also read that you are not going to take action.  Which is fair enough. you, like the rest of us has a life, need to eat and sleep and work and other stuff. But WHY have any rules when these are there just for the show but not to be respected.

Based on actions, or complete lack thereof, I would leave this game right away if I had not had credit in my account. I bought these under the assumption that rules are rules and should be respected. I didn't buy them to support fraud. And I will not let them go to waste and they are no longe refundable. And indeed it is fraud when you pretend to have rules, sell a product with these conditions and then just don't do anything to make sure rules are respected.

Yes, I agree it is just a game. But cheating and blackmailing is not part of any game. It is against the rules, according to Sami. But then rules are to be frowned upon?

Haven't you read the other posts or are you just ignoring them?

Quote from: Sandager on August 15, 2010, 10:25:16 PM
I really feel for the

Hi,

"Well if you check the manual / game rules, all intimidation and unfair play is forbidden.. So I guess you can say that to him and tell him to refer the rules/manual"

I guess you can write and tell him that. I guess you can. as in I don't care. There is no other way I can read that reply. MY apologies for that

I see you accepting it is not a fair way of doing business and I also read that you are not going to take action.  Which is fair enough. you, like the rest of us has a life, need to eat and sleep and work and other stuff. But WHY have any rules when these are there just for the show but not to be respected.

Based on actions, or complete lack thereof, I would leave this game right away if I had not had credit in my account. I bought these under the assumption that rules are rules and should be respected. I didn't buy them to support fraud. And I will not let them go to waste and they are no longe refundable. And indeed it is fraud when you pretend to have rules, sell a product with these conditions and then just don't do anything to make sure rules are respected.

Yes, I agree it is just a game. But cheating and blackmailing is not part of any game. It is against the rules, according to Sami. But then rules are to be frowned upon?

I guess you can is simply a way of suggesting something.  It could just as easily say 'I suppose you can...' or 'I would suggest you could...' 

He's not saying 'guess' as in 'I guess the answer is...' :)

 Yes it seems that some actions were taken. Despite people prefering no rules and no actions and supporting anarchy, Sami has apparently taken proper action. Thanks from me. Thanks for restoring a bit of trust in the rules

Sandager, I think you should really reconsider leaving the game.  :-\ I understand it is unfair to read and mind the rules of the game when they are not to be respected by some individuals, but you have to agree with me Sandager, most of us play a fair game and most of us aren't happy when this kind of situation happens. I really enjoy playing this game, whether I am going bankrupt or I have a huge and successful airline, I am allways learning. Of course I like to win, I enjoy being the best, but there are means of being more efective other than just attacking other fellow players. Some individuals don't really deal very well with the competition, but those shouldn't be given any credits to spoil the spirit of this game.

Unlike other fellows who posted their opinions, I don't really think this game should be about bullying/blackmailing other players for fun. We aren't playing a shooter. Fun is when you, by legal means, by following the rules of the game get where you want.

Like I said before, I don't think Sami should be required to enforce any rules. Unfortunately, some individuals hidden behind their virtual masks think, as this is a game, anything is possible, anything is fair, nothing's gonna happen because this is virtual. The fact is that we all pay to play, so we all should enjoy playing the game and I really enjoy the spirit of this game, but I don't see where this kind of situations (player to player harassment) contribute to any fun.

I will continue playing this game and I will allways reprove this kind of attitudes. If only all of you fellow did the same, Sami wouldn't have to be called everytime a player breaks the rules.

Quote from: Sandager on August 15, 2010, 10:25:16 PM
I really feel for the

Hi,

"Well if you check the manual / game rules, all intimidation and unfair play is forbidden.. So I guess you can say that to him and tell him to refer the rules/manual"

I guess you can write and tell him that. I guess you can. as in I don't care. There is no other way I can read that reply. MY apologies for that

I see you accepting it is not a fair way of doing business and I also read that you are not going to take action.  Which is fair enough. you, like the rest of us has a life, need to eat and sleep and work and other stuff. But WHY have any rules when these are there just for the show but not to be respected.

Based on actions, or complete lack thereof, I would leave this game right away if I had not had credit in my account. I bought these under the assumption that rules are rules and should be respected. I didn't buy them to support fraud. And I will not let them go to waste and they are no longe refundable. And indeed it is fraud when you pretend to have rules, sell a product with these conditions and then just don't do anything to make sure rules are respected.

Yes, I agree it is just a game. But cheating and blackmailing is not part of any game. It is against the rules, according to Sami. But then rules are to be frowned upon?

To be honest, what you have written is pure speculation and by the way you put your words, as per above, you to would be guilty of what you are accusing Sami of.....misunderstanding. You can read into it as much as you want but until you hear both sides of the story (and i doubt you will in this thread) then it's hard to just assume Sami doesn't give a crap.

For one the 'player' might have misunderstood Sami's initial answer. Sami simply suggested for him to try and work it out with the "supposed blackmailer" first to see if an agreement could be reached. You can't just go 'crying to mummy' because you didn't like what the "supposed blackmailer" may have said and expect Sami to hand down punishments like he'd committed murder or something. It's business, a dog eat dog world and in real life who would you cry too because someone broke an old agreement. It's hardly legally binding on here so certain situations make certain things change....and so to work out a new deal is called negotiations and thats what you do in business.

Quote from: oggie84 on August 15, 2010, 11:13:24 PM
and so to work out a new deal is called negotiations and thats what you do in business.

If you've had access to the msg sent you wouldn't have called it negotiations.  ::) Unless we are playing Mafiasim instead of Airwaysim...  8)

Quote from: filipebravo on August 15, 2010, 11:18:30 PM
If you've had access to the msg sent you wouldn't have called it negotiations.  ::) Unless we are playing Mafiasim instead of Airwaysim...  8)

Well this is the problem to everyone commenting on this subject....no one knows the full facts and i clearly stated this at the start of my last message.

So i agree with Hellsey...this thread should now be locked.

First off those that posted here about threats or intimidation or blackmailing are right...it doesnt belong here or anywhere. That being said there are those out there that WILL break the rules just to try them. I have observed several reports of misconduct in the game..and Sami's response has usually been they have been notified and they are expected to address their conduct..usually within a few days..nothing dramamtic as instantanious as vengence with bans and such. No one has posted the real messages and for one I don't wanna see em. I will point this one thing out.

Sandager- you are guilty of the very same exact conduct you want justice for. YOU took this issues not to Sami by PM and kept it there..you didnt get what you wanted fast enough so you took it to the public in hopes of forcing Sami's actions...aka BLACKMAIL...pure and simple. You cant dodge it..you cant hide it...and if you want justice for your alliance..then you need to be willing to take your own medicine. period. I know thru life things tend to move slow and I have to accept those just like most accept it...YOU on the other hand took out your frustration in a way that you were fighting against..thereby making you just as guilty as the one you want retribution on. My old grandmother used to say people that live in glass houses shouldn't throw rocks...I have faith in Sami and his admin team...and if/when I take an issue to them I have faith it WILL be handled in an appropriate manner. You on the otherhand have shown that you don't have faith..you have a vindictive streak and don't care how your actions affect others...so for my part..I hope you just fold your tent and disappear...you have already said you would..and I for one won't miss this inappropriate drama..You started this..so be a man and finish it..go away..  ::)

Quote from: filipebravo on August 15, 2010, 11:00:57 PM
I don't think Sami should be required to enforce any rules.

No, rules must be enforced, and I am doing that - based on reports I receive. But sometimes it is just much easier to say to the other person that "what you are suggesting is against the rules, please do not do that" (and forward the message to me too, for information).

(And as posted already, in many times when people report of rule violations there is nothing wrong in the situation, especially when talking about overcapacity situations where the graphs are often misread. But if there is a rule violation that has been checked and confirmed I do have to take an action of course .. First a warning, and then other actions if that does not help.)

But .. probably there is not much left to discuss on this. The actual issue what was talked was already sorted a time ago, and nobody probably has anything useful left to comment.