Require pilots/Miscalculation

[Sergey Goncharenko]

Interesting...
In my fleet now  13 very large aircrafts (7 – B-767 series and 6 B-777 series).
Total flying hours for all 13 a/c of fleet – is about 6000 h./month
Cabin crew need for 1 flight = 2 pilots.
Sanitary code for 1 pilots = max. 80 flying hours/month
Calculation:
6000:80=75*2=140
(75 crews, 140 pilots)
Require reserve crews:
75:5=15 crews, or 30 pilots
(For each five crews should be 1 reserve crew)
Require pilots for a covering of issue/holyday: 140+30=170/12=14
Total require: 140+30+14=184 pilots
Why in game required 230 pilots? 
25%  of pilots - absolutely unnecessary.
Why?
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P.S.
Training of crews doesn't influence flight-time.
There is flight time (80 hours per month) and is working times (168 hours per month).
168-80=88 hours - per month it is intends for trainings.

[Sami]

You could actually still count if it's even possible to schedule a 80hr/month rotation for the pilots in your schedule. And I guess not.

So it's always not as simple as it may look, and here too the general (rough) level or crews per aircraft in longhaul airplane is derived from a real data what a real airline has had.

But, for info. The staff numbers are NOT calculated on what kind of schedule or how many hours you fly. It's based on the assumption that each plane flies a normal rather "full" schedule, and also that long-haul planes are used for longhaul ops (requiring more staff than if used for shorthaul) and so on. So it is "never accurate" down to the last pilot.

[Sergey Goncharenko]

So it's always not as simple as it may look, and here too the general (rough) level or crews per aircraft in longhaul airplane is derived from a real data what a real airline has had.

Very strange. )))
"Aeroflot" actually fleet data B767/A330  (2011 y.):
A/c number of fleet – 24
Total flying hours (2011 y.) = 124417  
Average Flying hours per 1 a/c – 432 h/month
Crews members (with flight attendant and instructors) – 587 humans
587:24=24,4  member per 1 a/c.
In game: 230:13=17.7 – crew only!!! + more 600 flight attendant.
It's  unreal...
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I've checked up other planes (medium and large), for them pilots data is similar to the real.
The quantity of flight hours is calculated from the schedule - easy! )

[moberg]

I think you'll find that especially on long haul fleets the crew complement goes up due to more than 2 crew flights (relief crews), and long overnights required for rest with low frequency schedules.

[Sergey Goncharenko]

I think you'll find that especially on long haul fleets the crew complement goes up due to more than 2 crew flights (relief crews), and long overnights required for rest with low frequency schedules.

No.
For the sake of experiment, I h've cancelled some long flights, but result hasn't changed. It is required as much pilots (Was 230, remains 230).
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I think, that AWS problem consists:
- the true requirement of crews is hidden from the user
- it's impossible to make the integrated analysis of expenses
- it's impossible to make calculation the cost of flight hour for each plane type (or each group planes)
- it's impossible to correlate indirect expenses and to distribute them for according to a share
(For example see the pict.)

[Sami]

No.
For the sake of experiment, I h've cancelled some long flights, but result hasn't changed. It is required as much pilots (Was 230, remains 230).

Please read what I wrote previously.

The staff requirement is not calculated by your actual schedules or flight hours. As it would make no sense to need to fire or hire new staff every time you make the slightest change to the schedule.

[Sergey Goncharenko]

The staff requirement is not calculated by your actual

I don't try to dismiss pilots. I want accurate understanding, how many it is required pilots.
Managers of airline create predesign. The future economic model of the schedule and preliminary result pays off.
P.S.
If pilots aren't involved for flights it pays only the salary. The additional salary for flight hours isn't paid.

[JumboShrimp]

I don't try to dismiss pilots. I want accurate understanding, how many it is required pilots.
Managers of airline create predesign. The future economic model of the schedule and preliminary result pays off.
P.S.
If pilots aren't involved for flights it pays only the salary. The additional salary for flight hours isn't paid.

The short answer is: if you schedule one single 55 nm route that takes 2 hours, the system hires full set of pilots for that aircraft, as if the aircraft was busy around the clock for 24 hours.  If you keep adding routes to this aircraft, the number of pilots required remains the same.

[alexgv1]

It's kind of like you have a pilot "capacity" for the aircraft, and then it is up to you how much you utilise it (hence emphasis on higher fleet use than real world). Perhaps with hourly pilot wages as well, direct costs would go up.

[Sergey Goncharenko]

It's kind of like you have a pilot "capacity" for the aircraft, and then it is up to you how much you utilise it (hence emphasis on higher fleet use than real world). Perhaps with hourly pilot wages as well, direct costs would go up.

I daily study documents of some Airlines and compare with AWS simulation.
For all a/c types, except "Very Large" category the quantity of crews almost coincides with the necessary in AWS.
For "Very Lage" a/c cat. requirements pilots are overestimated.

[alexgv1]

I'm speaking simply of the way things are modelled at the moment, building on Jumboshrimp's analogy. Sure the numbers aren't quite perfectly worked out for staff, but it is good enough now. It would be a colossal project to get all the details right I would imagine 

So do you propose some coding which could do this?

[JumboShrimp]

I'm speaking simply of the way things are modelled at the moment, building on Jumboshrimp's analogy. Sure the numbers aren't quite perfectly worked out for staff, but it is good enough now. It would be a colossal project to get all the details right I would imagine 

So do you propose some coding which could do this?

I think what Uran is sayig that evaluating aircraft "siza" groups, all match very well with real world except Very Large.  If he is right on that, it would not be a question of recoding a whole lot, just the fixed pilot count constant that the system has for Very Large pilots.

[Sergey Goncharenko]

What do airlines when change schedule model? For example, the airline has decided to cancel all or reduce intercontinental (long-time) flights.
In this case there are two decisions:
1. To dismiss pilots
2. To train for flights by other planes type

Anyway user should see in the simulator, how many necessary pilots for the schedule actually.
And more:
- why dismissal of pilots should influence image of Airline? These are Airline internal affairs.
For the passengers this event is indifferent.

[JumboShrimp]

What do airlines when change schedule model? For example, the airline has decided to cancel all or reduce intercontinental (long-time) flights.
In this case there are two decisions:
1. To dismiss pilots
2. To train for flights by other planes

I think that is being considered for future versions of AWS

Anyway user should see in the simulator, how many necessary pilots for the schedule actually.
And more:
- why dismissal of pilots should influence image of Airline? These are Airline internal affairs.
For the passengers this event is indifferent.

When you have a headline: "British Airways announces staff reductions" it puts the company in bad light -> reduces Company Image.

[alexgv1]

What do airlines when change schedule model? For example, the airline has decided to cancel all or reduce intercontinental (long-time) flights.
In this case there are two decisions:
1. To dismiss pilots
2. To train for flights by other planes type

1. Currently the only option
2. Is a feature request which will hopefully be implemented one day  (https://www.airwaysim.com/forum/index.php/topic,17556.0.html)

[Sergey Goncharenko]

I think that is being considered for future versions of AWS

When you have a headline: "British Airways announces staff reductions" it puts the company in bad light -> reduces Company Image.

Passengers don't react to it. For passengers the price of tickets both comfortable seats and regular flights - is important only.
"British Airwyas" one million times dismiss employeesl, the personnel declared strikes, but image of Фirline hasn't suffered from it any way.

[Sami]

"British Airwyas" one million times dismiss employeesl, the personnel declared strikes, but image of Фirline hasn't suffered from it any way.

Really? Facts please.

I would claim that any company cutting large amount of staff is getting negative PR. And there are many examples of that in the near past (try searching "nokia bochum" for example, or try this link http://yle.fi/uutiset/news/2011/04/nokia_paid_dearly_for_bochum_factory_closure_2484261.html )

In any case, the fact that is that reducing staff in AWS will result in negative effects in company image. It will not change (as it makes perfect sense).

[Sergey Goncharenko]

Really? Facts please.

Sami, do you ever worked in a real Airline?
For Airline image can negatively influence only:
1. Air crash or incidents
2. Delays of flights
All.
---
The sale tictket constantly increases by flights BAW.
On the real route Moscow-London the passengers wishing to flight BAW every year more and more.
One more daily new flight since March, 25th, 2012, type: В-744 (BA-232/233).

[Sami]

Sami, do you ever worked in a real Airline?

Just got back from my work at the airline a few hours ago.


And sales on a single route is not in any way related to what was spoken about image loss earlier since there are so many factors involved. And in my mind airline's image (which is of course something that cannot be really measured, which actually creates the whole dilemma here?) is affected by MANY other things than just crashes or delays. (??!).  ...and since that is my opinion, that is the way it has been planned and coded here too and everybody seems to be happy with that.

(And I have no idea what you are trying to achieve here in these forum threads, but like mentioned if you have some actual and proper suggestions instead of random rants please post them properly sourced and thought to the request forum. You are not achieving anything like this....)

[Sergey Goncharenko]

I have already said: recommend calculation method to determine req. crews for long-time flights.
The user must have a preliminary calculation. When user open a new flight/route, it's impossible to determine advance the expenses of cabin crews and flight attendant.