I thought fleet commonality mattered.

[vectorforfood]

One of my main competitors, has a fleet of 6 aircraft, with 4 different types, yet he's making money hand over fist, some planes are 2 years old, some over 19 years old...

I haven't seen many people have success like that?

[swiftus27]

It doesn't.

This has been addressed and asked for many times. 

The penalties for flying additional types are simply way too low.   They need to NOT be linear.

I have honestly gotten out of every game until this is made a tad more realistic.  There is no joy in competing this way.  Here, you set an actual business plan in your mind to have a well maintained and low maint fleet.  Kind of like Southwest in the USA flying only the 737 (yes, I know they will have more now that they took out Airtran).    There is NO reason an airline should be profitable flying the 737 classic, 737NG, A320, MD80, and MD90 series all at once....... and that's just for their medium routes...   Those same airlines have DC10s, 747s, 767s, 777s, A300s, and A340s....  It just isn't right.

[Jps]

It depends.
Many use it as their starting strategy to grab every plane they can, regardless of fleet type. You can manage with this for some time, if you know what you do, and fuel prices are low. But once the fuel starts to rise and you get competition, you will very easily bankrupt if you don't get rid of some of the fleet types.

Edit: And I agree with Swiftus, it's nowhere near enjoyable to see and compete against airlines like that. It 1.) allows them to expand at a much greater pace than would be good, and 2.) then take all the slots in the production queues for the planes you would require with your fleet of 1 aircraft type.

[swiftus27]

1.) allows them to expand at a much greater pace than would be good, and 2.) then take all the slots in the production queues for the planes you would require with your fleet of 1 aircraft type.

QFT  /clap

[ukatlantic]

QFT  /clap

Agreed 100%!

[JumboShrimp]

I just went through a long effort of reducing my fleet types from 5 to 4, and the savings were negligible....

[mtnlion]

here is NO reason an airline should be profitable flying the 737 classic, 737NG, A320, MD80, and MD90 series all at once....... and that's just for their medium routes...   Those same airlines have DC10s, 747s, 767s, 777s, A300s, and A340s....  It just isn't right.

Ever heard of SAS?  They have: A319/A321, A330/A343, B734/B735, B737-600-B73NG-B738, CRJ900 and MD82. Total fleet of 142 aircrafts Not quite like Southwest? Or look at China Southern, they have everything from ATR to MD90 to A380 (on order).

But I agree that in Airwaysim there should be more fleet commonality costs. Especially when the fleet is, lets say under 100 aircrafts.

[JumboShrimp]

But I agree that in Airwaysim there should be more fleet commonality costs. Especially when the fleet is, lets say under 100 aircrafts.

I agree.  There should be much higher fixed start-up costs for a new fleet, and per aircraft cost should decline as you add more aircraft of the same type, the costs should keep declining...

[lilius]

Ever heard of SAS?  They have: A319/A321, A330/A343, B734/B735, B737-600-B73NG-B738, CRJ900 and MD82. Total fleet of 142 aircrafts Not quite like Southwest? Or look at China Southern, they have everything from ATR to MD90 to A380 (on order).

But I agree that in Airwaysim there should be more fleet commonality costs. Especially when the fleet is, lets say under 100 aircrafts.

It should be mentioned that SAS has made huge losses and are working on streamlining the fleet in time. Dont ask me why they never did this before but Im guessing the government subsidies are to blame for burning cash just for the fun of it. Proving the point even more youve got Norwegian.no competing on the same routes with just 737-800 and 737-300 which all will be replaced within time.

[airplane_mech2]

Kind of like Southwest in the USA flying only the 737 (yes, I know they will have more now that they took out Airtran).

And Airtan is gonna eventually phase out the 717's and replace with 737's.  I heard this from some of the Airtran boys I know over there 2 days it was announced Southwest was buying them.

[alexgv1]

And Airtan is gonna eventually phase out the 717's and replace with 737's.  I heard this from some of the Airtran boys I know over there 2 days it was announced Southwest was buying them.

Yeah mixing fleets is one of the worst reasons why mergers and acquisitions tend not to work smoothly (or at all).

[swiftus27]

Yeah mixing fleets is one of the worst reasons why mergers and acquisitions tend not to work smoothly (or at all).

and it also leads to issues with existing orders too.

[ICEcoldair881]

And Airtan is gonna eventually phase out the 717's and replace with 737's.  I heard this from some of the Airtran boys I know over there 2 days it was announced Southwest was buying them.

wrong I think - according to swa.com Southwest is going to keep the 717s but just re-configure them and use them for small, feeder routes. By doing this they're expanding their fleet, network coverage and destination list, and expanding into new areas never previously served by SWA. This includes flights from Atlanta and to places in the Midwest, Eastern and Western coasts and the Northeast (Maine, New Hampshire, Connecticut etc). I'd love to even see them cross the border to the North into little old Canadaland. Oh, and they're also going to expand into the Caribbean using the acquired B717s and B737s from AirTran.

Cheers,
ICEcold

[airplane_mech2]

wrong I think - according to swa.com Southwest is going to keep the 717s but just re-configure them and use them for small, feeder routes. By doing this they're expanding their fleet, network coverage and destination list, and expanding into new areas never previously served by SWA. This includes flights from Atlanta and to places in the Midwest, Eastern and Western coasts and the Northeast (Maine, New Hampshire, Connecticut etc). I'd love to even see them cross the border to the North into little old Canadaland. Oh, and they're also going to expand into the Caribbean using the acquired B717s and B737s from AirTran.

Cheers,
ICEcold

Ok, I guess that has changed since I heard about it.  I'll have to talk to my buddy over there and see what's going on.  I haven't talked to him in awhile anyway.

[schro]

Fleet commonality in the game will bankrupt an airline with too many fleet types once fuel gets up to a reasonable price and as inflation gets the price of planes such that cost of capital is a bit of an issue.

In real life, the magic number for most carriers for fleet types is about 30 planes - meaning that 1 fleet of 60 of a single type or 2 fleets of 30 of two different types cost about the same from a maintenance/commonality/training perspective.

People also seem to forget about Delta for a great commonality perspective. They're printing money and flying just about every fleet type invented since the mid 60's.

[Sigma]

People also seem to forget about Delta for a great commonality perspective. They're printing money and flying just about every fleet type invented since the mid 60's.

I don't think anyone's "forgetting" about them, they just don't apply to this scenario.  

Yes, Delta flies a lot of types of planes.   But they have a fleet of some eight hundred aircraft, and those are all large ones too.  Few, if any, airlines get that large (in terms of larger planes, so not counting the hundreds of regional jets one may have) in AWS.  And it flies only some 10-12 different types -- that's about 70 aircraft per type and not a lot considering the breadth of service it offers -- and, like you said, with that large of a number of each, commonality isn't a problem.  70 aircraft per type is a far better ratio than almost all airlines in AWS operate at.

The issue with commonality in AWS arises, not in the later part of the game when one has 500+ aircraft, but rather in the early part of the game where one has less than 50 or even 20.  And many of these airlines, with just 50 planes, will be flying over 15-20 different types.  That's just 2-3 planes per type.  That's a problem and not at all similar to Delta's operations.

Additionally, those airlines flying those 15 different types of planes with only a couple of each one, really are "printing money" in AWS, making profits of 20, 30, even 40% or more.  Delta may be doing very well today, but it's still netting a "measly" (in AWS terms) 5% profit margin, that'd be dire straits by AWS standards.  If airlines with poor commonality in AWS only made 5% margins there'd be no problem.

[DenisG]

I cannot really follow and am confused. Currently in aws, fleet commonality makes a difference on your cost base. It may be not as significant as some desire, but there is definitely a difference. As you grow and have more than 100 aircrafts, it is allright to fly 7 different types.

From my experience, also on the new engine, I can only confirm that is makes a difference should never be neglected as a competitive tool.

Denis

[GDK]

One of my main competitors, has a fleet of 6 aircraft, with 4 different types, yet he's making money hand over fist, some planes are 2 years old, some over 19 years old...

I haven't seen many people have success like that?

Well, that's the wonderful one. The fleet costs grow almost double, triple and quadruple when you add a new type into your fleet. But you got to understand that Fk.27 Mk 500 and Fk.27 Mk 600 or B737-100 and B737-200 or MD 81 and MD 82 are in the same type.

[pascaly]

Saw this article today and thought it relevant;

http://www.flightglobal.com/articles/2010/12/13/350878/ryanair-single-fleet-rule-no-longer-applies.html

[GDK]

Saw this article today and thought it relevant;

http://www.flightglobal.com/articles/2010/12/13/350878/ryanair-single-fleet-rule-no-longer-applies.html

The article deny the scenario stated in the 1st post. The cost is insignificant when you own a big fleet, but not just a fleet of 6 aircraft with 4 types in it.