Its amazing how many failed aircraft succeed in AWS

[swiftus27]

The title basically says it all.  I am surprised to see how many of you use aircraft that utterly failed. 

For instance the Fokker 70.  There were only 47 made for sale plus the prototype.  Im MT2, there are 234.   283 Fokker 100s were made in real life... 1587 are in service or for sale right now. 

Ive seen the Dassault Mercure sell many times over.... despite only 12 ever being made. 

There are so many other examples.

[Sigma]

A lot of it has to do simply with the time and quantity of aircraft we're buying in-game... that and the margins we've got.

In real-life, a lot of planes simply came at the wrong time, when airlines weren't in need of that particular plane (or didn't realize they would be in the future) and when they did they were other offers.

The quantity of planes we're buying, and that all of us are buying at once, means we need to look to other models than simply the most popular ones because we're trying to procure thousands of aircraft per year.

In real-life profit margins are tiny compared to what we see in the game, this means buying just the right plane is a big deal.  The issues the Mercure had would be deal-breakers in real-life, but here they're simply acceptable compromises.

Then there's the fact that frequency means more than anything else in this game, that pushes people towards buying more smaller planes, or even more larger ones, of a particular plane and putting more seats on a route than they would if their margins were a more realistic 5% rather than 40%.

[Curse]

Also we have the magical future eye.

If a game world ends 1983 I know there will be no better prop aircraft as the NAMC-YS11 in the game.

I also know how my pax demand will increase in this time and I can plan how much the fuel prices will go for.

All this makes me to decide in another way than if I don't know what aircraft will be released and if the pax numbers will increase or decrease etc.


Also in real life (bigger) airlines get big discounts if they often buy at only one manufacturer etc. In AWS I have no advantage of running only a Boeing or Airbus fleet, so why not put some Fokker in there.


What you also can see for example;
- nobody real wants to use Concorde and Tu-144 
- B707 has only one advantage against DC-8, the runway requirement, and the B707-420 is the best variant because of the low fuel consumption 

AWS and real world are different, yes, but things in AWS repeat (as long as I play  )

[d2031k]

As mentioned above, it is a fascinating observation of how differently things can turn out with retrospect.  Financial aspects are undoubtedly very different here, but I often wonder how different things would have been without the heavy influence of politics and rules and regulations in the real world.

There's a link to a fascinating article from the FT here - http://eucitizens.eu/Forum/index.php?topic=1797.0 that comments on the Japanese situation and airlines like El Al who are heavily in favour of Boeing products.

Airlines in AWS aren't subject to many geo-politicial factors, but as alluded to above this could perhaps be a future factor.

[juanchopancho]

Saab 2000s, didn't sell much in the real world thanks to the ERJs. I love the Saab 2000s in AWS, I've bought over 80, all of them making a big chunk of change.

[apenfold]

Only 64 Saab 2000s were ever built, there are 199 operating and 117 on order in MT2. Generally on the sectors that they operate there is no disadvantage (time wise) to operating the Saab over an Embraer 145. Having flown on both aircraft between Southampton and Newcastle on numerous occasions I can say that the Saab 2000 is much much better for passenger comfort than the 145, with a slightly wider fuselage and as no-doubt many people will have spotted in AWS it's max capacity is 58 rather than 50.

In this case I think there was a great deal of "prop-fright" on the part of the airlines, when fuel prices were low and regional jets were all the rage. But I'll bet that airlines with the 145 were secretly wishing they had ordered the Saab 2000 over the 145 during the mid-late 2000s. Fortunately the oft talked about passenger dislike of propellor aircraft in reality, is not modelled in AWS (as far as I know).

I'm afraid that I have to contradict you slightly with regards to Concorde, a short while back I ordered 4 for "fun" (I had enough Jumbos to cover any losses), but when configured with a 100 seat all business configuration the aircraft were actually turning a decent profit, enough to make me order some more (as helpfully the sonic boom restrictions are not modelled either), so Concorde can be a good plane to operate.

[Sigma]

Fortunately the oft talked about passenger dislike of propellor aircraft in reality, is not modelled in AWS (as far as I know).

It is, it's just a very minor factor unlike real-life.

[Curse]

I'm afraid that I have to contradict you slightly with regards to Concorde, a short while back I ordered 4 for "fun" (I had enough Jumbos to cover any losses), but when configured with a 100 seat all business configuration the aircraft were actually turning a decent profit, enough to make me order some more (as helpfully the sonic boom restrictions are not modelled either), so Concorde can be a good plane to operate.

It adds you another fleet commonality. 

For myself I like props and if pax won't fly with a prop, I'd like to invite them to swim from Asia to North America (start of Jet Age 2 Game) 

[swiftus27]

I know people who'd fear a Dash 8 Q400.

I know people who also fear flying on a CRJ or similar.  

I'd agree with the above statement, but I feel that people simply fear smaller planes first of all.  It just happens that props are all small planes.  

[GDK]

Or we should rather say people use small planes wrongly...

[swiftus27]

Or we should rather say people use small planes wrongly...

how's that?  Douglas stopped making the DC-7 a long time ago.  There just aren't any large props any more.

[apenfold]

If I'm honest I fear flying on Q400s (FlyBe )

[meiru]

the model prefers the smallest plane for a route that can be flown at a high speed... I'd say, that's not like in reality... but anyway, I think in reality some planes failed for political reasons... e.g. the MD-90s ... I have an all MD-90 fleet and I don't understand, why someone uses the 737 or 738 or A320 instead of an MD-90... they're much cheaper and need only a little bit more fuel... and politics doesn't play such a big role in here... on the other hand side the personal feelings do play a role ... 

[swiftus27]

Meiru it is due to fleet commonality. 

Also, the MD90 was very short lived in real life... MD didn't survive.

Explain to me how the MD11 is no longer offered but the DC 10-30 is.... that just makes no sense.
Also, in MT2, the MD81 is available almost 20 years now after it was launched.    The only reason that people still buy them is because they are built separately from each other.   That needs to change.

[meiru]

fleet comonality? ... sorry, but that's something I don't understand... why should I choose to buy 50 A320 instead of 50 MD90s ? ... this really doesn't make sense to me... ok, in reality, you are more flexible with the A318-A321 and 736-739 ... but not here...

and... the DC10 is still offered? ... where? ... not in the games I'm playing... or in real life? ... ok, that's easy to understand... all MD-11 operators are operating them and not selling them...

[swiftus27]

Im talking abouy having fleet commonality across all lines. 

Airbus, I can use A330/340 in one group, A320 series in a second, and A300 in third.  That way you are Airbus across the board.  You can add an A380 if you want.     

MD only has the 80/90/DC10/11. 

I mentioned MT2...  I am in the game Modern Times 2.  The DC 10 is available but the MD 11 was already cancelled.  The MD 81, MD 90, and the B717 are all available right now (even though all 3 were really built on the same line)

[filipebravo]

I use 737 instead of MD-90 because of the range. I'm based in Lisbon and with 737 I can cross the Atlantic. A320 also offers a better range when compared to MD-90.

[alexgv1]

Somebody already mentioned the Dash 8 Q400. I'll be the first to say it isn't a failed aircraft.

Although it did receive bad press when SAS dropped the type after several incidents involving gear collapse on landing.

However in most game worlds I've experienced there are over 1000 worldwide and a massive backlog on production.

I'm sure this is much larger than how many are in the real world. I am only aware of a few major operators - FlyBE, and a few regionals in Canada and USA.

I'd say this is one aircraft which has done a lot better in AWS than it would in the world.

[GDK]

Although it did receive bad press when SAS dropped the type after several incidents involving gear collapse on landing.

Have you ever got an accident on any of your plane in AWS? Maybe that's another reason why failed birds in real success in AWS.

[meiru]

Im talking abouy having fleet commonality across all lines. 

I mentioned MT2...  I am in the game Modern Times 2.  The DC 10 is available but the MD 11 was already cancelled.  The MD 81, MD 90, and the B717 are all available right now (even though all 3 were really built on the same line)

Ok, but with large fleets it doesn't make such a big difference, if all are Airbus or not (in the game). The range is an argument against the MD80/90s. But for the DC-10 the argument for me seems to be the comparable or lower fuel burn and the standard seating config. In DC-10 you get more seats than in the MD-11 because they used only standard C/F and it seems, that many don't calculate that far, so that they could see, that a full MD-11 brings more money than a full DC-10 ... on the other side, it's true... an empty DC-10 costs less than an empty MD-11 on the same route... ok, it's difficult... and sometimes the models are extremely close to each other... (and without cargo even closer... I remember, that Swissair once made the decision for the MD-11, because it was able to fly the DC-10-30er routes without restrictions and more cargo ... so, there is not a big difference...)