French plane lost over Atlantic
An Air France plane carrying at least 228 people from Brazil has disappeared from radar screens over the Atlantic.
Paris Charles de Gaulle airport said contact was lost with the flight from Rio de Janeiro at 0600 GMT. Brazil's air force confirmed the disappearance.
An airport official told AFP the Airbus 330 had been expected to arrive in Paris at 1110 local time (0910 GMT).
Another official said it was possible that the plane had a transponder problem but this was very rare.
"We are very worried," he said, quoted by AFP news agency. "The plane disappeared from the screens several hours ago."
Flight AF 447 left Rio at 1900 local time (2200 GMT) on Sunday. It had 216 passengers and 12 crew on board.
Airport authorities have set up a crisis centre at Charles de Gaulle.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/8076848.stm
Very bad news. The chance of all the plane's communication systems failing at once is very slim. I just pray the brazilian authorities sent out search parties long befoe the aircraft failed to turn up at CDG. The plane could have ditched in the atlantic nearly 5 hours ago!
'Brazil's air force confirmed the plane was missing and said a search and rescue mission was under way near the island of Fernando de Noronha.'
So they are searching... dunno when they started though... BBC keeps their links updated so you should check back every once in a while...
I just heard about this... hope that everything is ok...
This may be the same scenario as LOST. i'm not kidding :(
The plane is reported to have had some kind of electric circuit failure after suffering from heavy turbulence at around 0200 GMT.
More info on BBC (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/8076848.stm).
Furthermore, the plane has already run out of fuel (if it has been in the air that long), and Brasilian air force has sent airplanes to fly towards Europe searching the plane.
My prayers are with the passengers and crew. :-\
Same here... my thoughts and prayers for the passengers, crews and their family and loved ones...
I'm afraid that's where it's going to end yes :(
I hope they find out soon what can bring down a 4 year old aircraft of one of the safest airlines in the world...
My guess is that they might have made a water landing shortly after and are in the Atlantic on the slides. I hope that's what happened and that everyone will be okay. :(
They should find something..... Heck, they found tons of pieces of TWA 800 that exploded over the atlantic and came to the ground in many pieces.
With TWA 800, though, it was right off the coast (shallower waters), and there were a ton of witnesses. No one really knows exactly where the AF 447 night have made it to, and it was over the deeper parts of the Atlantic.
Generally safe aircraft, and rare that storms would reach as high as they would have been flying. It'll be a while before we find out what might have happened. If at all...
Quote from: bigdogshark62 on June 02, 2009, 12:02:21 AM
Generally safe aircraft, and rare that storms would reach as high as they would have been flying. It'll be a while before we find out what might have happened. If at all...
Actually they're saying that the region where they think it went down is known for strong storms, with lightning reaching as high as 50,000 feet.
I heard about this in the Australian news. It was a big shock to all. I'm speechless... :o
I'm only a 13 year old passionate about aviation guys, so my opinion might not be very accurate but,
This video on youtube (air crash investigation - the plane that vanised pt1,2,3,4,5) tells a similar story. A plane that vanished from radar screens after severe turbulence and the reckage was found in a different place before it lost contact.
Basically, it says that when swithching from navigation to autopilot, the plane needs to fly straight for 30 seconds. This is a bit hard to do when you are in a severe thounder storm, so, the symtems calibrated the route wrongly pushing them off course.
If you look at the route that planes take from South America to Europe, it is very close to Africa. The plane could have been deviated on to the African continent, and realising that there was not enough fuel for them to get to an airport, they attemped an emergency landing. They were not found as some areas of inner Africa have a very low population density.
The communication antenna could have been struck by severe lightening, and, the altimeter could have had a malfunction due to the bad weater as well because readings are difficult to make in bad weather as the measuring systems was disturbed. Due to the darkness, they could not see the proximity to the sea, and understand that the were too low, so they went below the covering of the radars.
I join in saying that my foughts are for the passengers, crew, and their loved ones :(
Wow I thought I was the only 13 year old :laugh:
Anyway, back on topic, this sad topic...
I haven't seen the whole episode of Air Crash Investigations you are talking about, but from what I have seen, it looks like the same sort of story as the Air France flight when I compared it.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but from what I have heard, the pilots of the AF flight didn't tell Air Traffic Control that they were struggling. Only the plane's automatic system sent it out. Finding the black boxes will help finish this case, but since it is believed to be in the ocean, it isn't easy to find it. This ACI that you're talking about Filippo happened in 2007, so it must have been easier to find the blackboxes as it was really quick because the case must be closed by now.
My little theory goes with the lightning strike theory but takes it a little further, since a lightning strike should not bring down a modern airliner.
Ok, so they are flying through a storm at night. There are no visual references so they are relying on their insturments for navigation. It would be disastorous if something were to cause those intruments to give false readings, wouldn't it? Insert lightning strike. If the lightning strike is large (as suggested) and strikes a particular part of the aircraft, potentially it might be able to hit the fly-by-wire system. If the instruments then begin telling them they are banking/climbing/diving when they're not, the pilot, or possibly the auto-pilot, would try to correct this. I don't need to tell you how bad that would be. It could also be spacial disorientation if the instruments stopped working completely or told them they were flying straight and level when they were not.
The lack of ATC contact is a little disconserting and suggests that either something happened suddenly, or so slowly that the cockpit crew didn't even notice it happening.
But that's just my speculation.
Quote from: Dorito_25 on June 02, 2009, 11:05:54 AM
Correct me if I'm wrong, but from what I have heard, the pilots of the AF flight didn't tell Air Traffic Control that they were struggling. Only the plane's automatic system sent it out.
That's what I've heard as well...the aircraft sent an automatic message to maintenance that it had electrical failures and a
loss of cabin pressure. This morning it was reported that the search has turned up sparse debris and an oil slick. I can't imagine what those people must have gone through and I hope they're at rest and their families / friends can find peace.
There are many possibilities for why pilots haven't contacted the ATC. Most likely it's because
1.) this happened too fast that they had no time
2.) the weather was so poor that the radiowaves just didn't reach the ATC
There are other possibilities, as well.
...could be a positive lightning strike. Positive lightning is much more formidable than negative lightning (what is most always seen by us).
A detailed meteorological analysis
http://www.weathergraphics.com/tim/af447/
I take back what I said earlier, the evidence that debris has been found 35 miles apart suggests to me that the plane broke up in the air. This could have been caused by any number of things: structural defects, over-stress and unfortunately, an explosion, to name a few. A harrowing thought, and I hope I really am wrong about the last one.
Gentlemen,
Sad, sad, sad news...
Brazilian Air Force found the accident local. An E-99 (ERJ145 with special radar) has found passengers seats, orange vest and white parts of the fuselage. No survivor was found. Sad
Brazilian specialists says that A330 flew into the Atlantic Ocean in high speed.
Ahh, they also found oil and Jet fuel, so I believe that the A330 didn´t explode.
RIP
wait a sec, could a posititve lightening strike cause an electricity loss?
If this is the case:
A posititve lightening strike has put out electricity on board. There are fans below the plane that spin due to the air to create electricity. This is enough to keep the plane going, but not enough to do advanced manuvers.
Then, a loss in cabin pressure occured. Due to the storm they were flying at a very high altitude. When the loss of cabin pressure occured, they only had 12 minutes (oxygen reserves) left. They therefore pitched, but, due to the small quantity of electricity the flaps and spoilers did not activate. Y
The plane reached above normal speeds and when they were at 10 000 feet (oxygen is available at this altitude) they were so quick that they did not manage to pull the nose up, so they went crashing into the sea. Or, the readings on their apparatus was wrong, they had no visual horizon and it was dark, so they desended more than needed therefore plunging into the sea. Maybe the plane also broke in the air due to the high speed (this would explain why pieces of the a/c are found at such a distance.
Could this be?
At the moment everything is pure speculation, however, if all the backup computer systems shorted out as well as the main computer then even if they had the RAM Air Turbine deployed it could be possible that the essential instruments still wouldnt work - although they do have analogue VHSI and Airspeed indicators so they they ware not totally disorientated. Unfortunately until the 2 'black boxes' are found we may never know what caused such a terrbile loss of life.
Quote from: ukatlantic on June 03, 2009, 06:53:50 PM
Unfortunately until the 2 'black boxes' are found we may never know what caused such a terrbile loss of life.
And just as unfortunate, because of the location, it's possible we may never be able to find the black boxes.
Just wondering, as the 'Buses are "Fly-by-wire" technology, is there a way to control the aircraft without electircs, aside from just using trim? Some aircraft have hydraulic backups, and some have cable backups, but I don't know if Airbus does or not. And whether or not it would have even helped in this instance.
Quote from: ukatlantic on June 03, 2009, 06:53:50 PMalthough they do have analogue VHSI and Airspeed indicators so they they ware not totally disorientated.
I didn't know that! It makes perfect sense though, so long as they have some light to shine on it.
I don't think they got dissorientated anymore though, as the evidence so far is pointing towards the plane breaking up before hitting the water, and I can't see that happening with simple dissorientation.
The "bus" does have a system in the event of computer failure its called mechanical backup - rudder for roll and a trimmable horizontal stab for pitch , you can land like this (VERY hard) but it is designed to control the aircraft whilst you get a computer back on line.
All aircraft have emergency torches in case of light failure and most if not all pilots carry their own personal one.
Apprantly 'new' Airbus planes carry redundant systems, so if one should fail, a back-up system would take over. Their are many redundant systems on these types of aircraft so even if alot of major systems went down at the same time these should take over very quickly.
There seems to be alot of theories floating around, many mentioned on here and plauseable. another one i heard is that lighting stuck the fuel tanks and the plane exploded. Apparantly the FAA issued a warning a few years ago to Airbus saying that the fuel tanks could be exploded by lighting strikes on this type of aircraft and to sort this issue out! Did AF check this?!
Another theory was that the tropical storm was so intense it literally flipped the plane over and sent it into an un-recoverable dive. Diving at such a speed and then some, would rip the plane apart causing the widespread debris that was discovered.
My thoughts are with every connected to this disaster and i pray they died instantaneously so they didn't feel any pain.
Im not so technical about aircrafts like you guys, that i can join this conversation.
But, instead i will send my thoughts to the families and friends that also have been struck by this sad Air France story.
My condolence and thoughts to the people who has been left behind.
Mr.Freak
Although I fully trust planes, This summer I have to follow my Dad on some Business Trips in Asia and we decided to try AF (usually I fly Luftansa) and the booking system says that we are going to travel always on A330 200!
Quote from: Filippo on June 04, 2009, 01:54:36 PM
Although I fully trust planes, This summer I have to follow my Dad on some Business Trips in Asia and we decided to try AF (usually I fly Luftansa) and the booking system says that we are going to travel always on A330 200!
I wouldn't worry if I were you. Air France's flights with A330s number in the hundreds of thousands (possibly even millions), and 1 flight out of those has crashed. You're more likely to be killed travelling to the airport. Have fun! ;D
Thanks!
I wish you all a good summer!
Thanks! But I'm not in Summer :( My winter has just started, but lucky it isn't cold!
I'm still not hearing as much news any more about this flight. I have heard that they have found some sort of wreckage but the main news in the flu.
I don't think they have found the main body of the aircraft, just jet fuel (I think).
I have watched several Air Crash Investgation shows and one of them was a crash into the sea. They said that the Blackboxes only had 30 days to run on its own battery power when it is in water. This was in the 1980's. Do the blackboxes still run for 30 days or has it been changed to last longer in the last 20 years?
yes one month only!
I think the beacon will work for just 30 days but the info in the black boxes will last much longer if stumbled upon after the beacon goes dead.
In this case if they don't find them before the beacon goes dead they wont ever find them.
they are no saying on sky news that there a preliminary report shows there was a autopilot malfunction... :-\...how can they just speculate this with no evidence?!
Quote from: oggie84 on June 03, 2009, 10:32:50 PM
There seems to be alot of theories floating around, many mentioned on here and plauseable. another one i heard is that lighting stuck the fuel tanks and the plane exploded. Apparantly the FAA issued a warning a few years ago to Airbus saying that the fuel tanks could be exploded by lighting strikes on this type of aircraft and to sort this issue out! Did AF check this?!
That's not even remotely possible, I'd say. And if it would be, the same would then apply for each and every other aircraft type in the world as fuel systems in Airbus and other major airliners are rather identical.
The latest info directs to some fault in the attitude/speed/reference computers which then triggered a number of other faults. But what caused that is rather unknown yet. Probably the failure of the primary flight instruments (with disconnection of AP+A/THR which is normal in such case) may have lead to uncontrollable flight situation (=loss of situational awareness?) in heavy weather.
Yeah. That's what I heard and think.
The search groups are gtting closer to the main body (piece of debris) of the aircraft (if there is one) as they have found bodies in the ocean. I can't believe that this crash actually happened. You don't hear much about planes crashing these days. Well not where I'm from.
Quote from: Dorito_25 on June 07, 2009, 06:25:59 AM
You don't hear much about planes crashing these days. Well not where I'm from.
Qantas had a month or two were planes really went close to crashing. Luckily it didn't happen.
Quote from: sami on June 06, 2009, 11:26:19 AMThe latest info directs to some fault in the attitude/speed/reference computers which then triggered a number of other faults. But what caused that is rather unknown yet. Probably the failure of the primary flight instruments (with disconnection of AP+A/THR which is normal in such case) may have lead to uncontrollable flight situation (=loss of situational awareness?) in heavy weather.
I would agree that so far the evidence seems to be pointing to a problem with the pitot-static system or the flight computers/backup systems it fed data to, ultimately forcing the pilots to hand-fly the plane through rough wx, in the darkness, with at least some primary instruments failed. We know for a fact that the autopilot was disarmed.. whether it was the flight crew doing it manually or the A/C responding to conflicting air data inputs (like what happened in the Qantas A332 incident) is unclear at this point. But one thing is for sure either way - the disarming of the autopilot may indicate that something was causing errant airspeed/altitude/VS indications somewhere in the system, which forced the pilots to fly the plane manually.
To begin with, I understand that the pitot-static system on the A330 is triple-redundant (?) and how it could have suffered a catastrophic failure is a bit puzzling... But even so, what confuses me is why such a failure, while no doubt posing a significant threat to safety of the flight, would by itself ultimately lead to a loss of the airplane. Even without airspeed, vertical speed, or even altitude information available for whatever reason, any pilot worth his salt should know the simple formula [pitch + power = performance]
I believe that almost all commercial airliners have angle-of-attack instrumentation onboard, and assuming the engines and attitude/heading reference system (I don't know what Airbus a/c use to sense attitude/heading.. anybody know?) were working normally, my assumption would be that the pilots should have been able to choose a power setting and pitch for an approximate airspeed. I mean, all instrument-rated pilots should be proficient in flying under partial-panel conditions, and I would guess (although this is speculation) that Air France must have some sort of procedures for its flight crews to follow dealing with the loss of primary flight instruments, right?
Basically, if the engines and control systems are all working normally, there is no reason for a plane to crash.. even with the loss of the pitot-static system and the indications it provides. It sounds like there is still something else that we haven't uncovered yet.
(There is also the question of the ACARS vertical cabin speed alert... which would indicate a rapid loss of cabin pressure... ???)
Quote from: Filippo on June 07, 2009, 01:23:44 PM
Qantas had a month or two were planes really went close to crashing. Luckily it didn't happen.
Oh yeah. I was on one of the planes that had problems! The news called it the "Queensland and Notable Terror Aerial Services" month. This is because there was an aborted take off, oxygen bottle exploded, nose dives (that recovered) and oil spills..it was a bad month for Qantas.
I can't get over the way they held the situation though... The plane that had that nose dive in Western Australia on its way to Perth from Singapore was a...(get ready for it) an Airbus A330. (Which is mentioned earlier...) I'm not sure exactly why the plane went down, but it's on Wikipedia under Qantas. Maybe the same thing happened to Air France, but the bad weather couldn't help them recover...
Anymore news about the Air France? I haven't heard much lately, just a computer was found and two male bodies...
Last I heard 10 hours ago.
2 bodies found Saturday by Brazil. 15 found Sunday by Brazil and France. Not really releasing details but the story did mention 2 males, 2 females and someone who was found still belted into their seat. Briefcase and laptop computer were found along with aircraft pieces.
US Navy sending 2 vessels with a sonar(or whatever its called) to be pulled by French ships that can pick up the ping of the black boxes at a depth of 20,000 feet.
Quote from: DSimm626 on June 08, 2009, 12:06:53 PM
Last I heard 10 hours ago.
2 bodies found Saturday by Brazil. 15 found Sunday by Brazil and France. Not really releasing details but the story did mention 2 males, 2 females and someone who was found still belted into their seat. Briefcase and laptop computer were found along with aircraft pieces.
US Navy sending 2 vessels with a sonar(or whatever its called) to be pulled by French ships that can pick up the ping of the black boxes at a depth of 20,000 feet.
Er all ships has sonar... perhaps US navy is sending ships with ROV's so that they can investigate sonar echoes that looks like plane parts in the sea bed.
(https://www.airwaysim.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fgraphics8.nytimes.com%2Fimages%2F2009%2F06%2F08%2Fworld%2Fplane.650.1.jpg&hash=3485b74fe088be924736dcf7ee6b6ab66429969d)
Quote from: Dan380 on June 08, 2009, 06:26:03 PM
(https://www.airwaysim.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fgraphics8.nytimes.com%2Fimages%2F2009%2F06%2F08%2Fworld%2Fplane.650.1.jpg&hash=3485b74fe088be924736dcf7ee6b6ab66429969d)
that is one sad pic *tears*
(https://www.airwaysim.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.fab.mil.br%2Fportal%2Fvoo447%2FFOTOS%2F090609%2Ffoto1.jpg&hash=88a189105233c9b77fc2c13f24e009e5c5dd189f)