I dont know what anyone else think's but personally I feel that this game was not as enjoyable as I had hoped, and I decided to leave. My reasons for this was that there was in my own opinion too many players allowed, and the used airline market is very very frustrating; in the sense that any decent aircraft were gone and everytime I logged in (bearing in mind I work 8 -5 every day), the only used aircraft were either russian, very small capacity or between 17 - 22 years old, thus leading to the players who do work having very little if any choice of aircraft, that could help in the competitive market.
Does anyone else think this, or have I just be unlucky in obtaiing aircraft?
agree about too many player
375 just too much,300 are fine..
I have 8 competitors in singapore.many route over supply already..
I agree that there are too many players, however some will go bankrupt soon enough and free up some space.
Yeah I had 4 palyers ay Sydney plus the ones coming in from asia! I think 300 - 325 would have been enough - maybe even put a limit on say 3 major airlines only allowed to base at each of the major airports might have made it a bit more viable :-\
Well, for those people who wish to limit the number players, there is an option: private game. As there's one already and I think there's less than 50 players?
Currently my base has 6 players (used to be 8)--LAX--I'm fine with that personally, coz I like competitions.
I work 40 hours a week and had a family as well.
Please do not take this personal.
I'm glad to be able to comepte with you guys, directly or indirectly.
If you prefer a more relaxed envionrment and just wish to enjoy this game, maybe a private game would be a solution?
In addtion, I agree that its quite crowded for 8 players in SIG and 4 players in SYD.
Thus, we have to choose our base wisely. Everyone whish to have a dream base with less competetion.
You have to predict how many players are going to choose this base and how much pax it has.
Please be reminded that situation in LHR is even worse and LHR does not open 24h! -- how many slots can you get?
==============
If you can't get a decent plane in used market, try order some new MD80s. Don't have to wait for long and you won't loose too much grip from the start line...
I ensure you that 50% of current Top 10 players (by PAX) will go bust within 8 game years.
Exactly! ANd to but new Md-80 well you need the money first to buy them! If your having trouble getting aircraft on the used market in the intital stages how on earth can you hope to order new aircraft! The game is oversaturated with players i thik a 300 - 325 limit would have been enough :-\
this is the first 375 player games if I am right... :P
I agree with there being too many people, I may be interested in a private game. How much credits do they cost though?
Thanks Ryan
I believe it was some 30 credits, if at least 30 players joined...
Very frustrating. Maybe if Sami told only me the time that planes entered the market it would be better. As it is I can't find a plane and the ones I have now are entering C-check. Very frustrating........300 players should work better
I'd be willing to pay 50 credits to play in a 250 person game...saturation is never good.....But would the available planes then be based on number of players, or remain as it is?
It wasnt 30 credit's for a private game -if I remeber correctly I paid 15 to join skylinks private 30 - to be honest though 30 players isnt enough not if you want the major continents - you'd probably need at least 100 players i would have thought who would want to play.
Quote from: jamboy2378 on April 25, 2009, 02:34:35 PM
Very frustrating. Maybe if Sami told only me the time that planes entered the market it would be better. As it is I can't find a plane and the ones I have now are entering C-check. Very frustrating........300 players should work better
I'd be willing to pay 50 credits to play in a 250 person game...saturation is never good.....But would the available planes then be based on number of players, or remain as it is?
Why should SAMI tell only you? LOL! That would definately be an unfair advantage ;)
The used plane market is empty, but I think because of this there is vast untapped route demand. Flying from DXB to North America, I discovered almost completely empty domestic routes. I think the whole mess will clear up in a real life week when new planes start flooding the airways.
No, the player numbers are good- stops mega- airlines forming hopefully
Well there are already the same old names that are becoming the big players already with huge amounts in the bank, so no doubt it going to be the same old dominat players!
I'm enjoying even, if the used market is rather empty at times. And just for a reference; I work, have a family, hobbies, etc. Time is limited also in here, but you don't see me complaning. ;)
/BE
As ukatlantic mentioned, the Private Game that was organized by SKYLINK had a cost of 15 credits to join and was limited to only North America and Europe with 30 players. To me it should have been global with 100-150 players.
Yeah I agree with brockster - now that would have been a good ;D
Great Topic here!
Well if someone does host a game, for about 100 serious players or so, please let me know!
I would pay to join that game.
NicholasB
Well if people are interested and will definately commit to paying for a private game, then if people log their interest here first, then maybe we can ask SAMI if he'll do a private game for us!
As much as I want it to be done, I don't think it's a smart move right now. Sami mentioned opening up another Air Boom game so I think we should wait for this wave of games to get going before going any further. Unless that doesn't matter at all.
If we were to plan something like this, we would need to make sure we have the amount of people specified (it was difficult to get even 30 for the SKYLINK game and we are now down to 18).
Yes I noticed that alot of people have quit Skylinks game, to be honest I think with that game the fact that it was only 30 people and also combined with it being just north America and Europe, put people off due to the limitations expansion wise, and sincethese new games have come online the numbers have dropped even further - or so it appears :-\
Yeah, I understand why. I wish we could have just gone all out and have the whole world and not just N America and Europe.
I'll be more than interested in a privat game. This is just not do-able... Sit here behind the pc pressing F5 all day (i'm having a day off.. :-\)
Tell me about it - its ridiculous all the used aircraft that are avaialbe are rubbish russian or really really old! surely something can be done to improve the ration of western aircarft so everyone can get a bite of the cherry! :-\
Maybe game worlds of only 200 players (first 200 who log in....too hard to round up 200 people) with a buy-in of 20 credits? That would satisfy people ::)
well to be honest i've been in a game world with 300 and that was manageable - i think once it hits over this number it is very very difficult to get decent used aircraft :-\
sorryy to disturb, but what is a "privat game"?
Do you just play alone?
Thank-you
a private game is limited to a set number of people; currently i am playing in airlinks private 30 which was 30 players with europe and north america continents only
Skylink's private game was actualy really boring. Even limited to NA and Europe it was way to easy.
It's not about player slots available. It's the redone used aircraft generation script.
The Jet Age has under 300 players, but there is still total lack of used over 20pax aircraft.
Everything goes from used market including 15y old CV880/990s, DC-6s, DC7s etc...
Every half decent aircraft (all Airbus, Boeing, MD models and even aircraft like L1011, F27&28 and BAC 1-11 has over two years of production queues. Now even Russian aircraft queues are building up, because there is no way to expand if you visit the game only 10 times a day at random clock times.
If you wish to have less players in one game just becaue you can't get a decent player, please read:
I spend a whole day yesterday, found out that everytime when new planes put into used market, there's at most 6x A320 family, 6x B737 family, and maybe 4x MD80s.
At the starting stage, everyone is trying to grab those planes, how many planes whould remain there for 2 hours? I saw the entire Airbus and most of Boeings (besides 747s) were picked up within 5 mins!
To be honest, you can't simply limit the number of players to be able to get good planes in usded market.
Be patient please, to lease a brand new one, if the queue is too long, switch to another type; or maybe fly another route in some extreme cases.
There will be plenty of used plane available after the early stage, and many big players will went backrupt and you can catch them up then.
=========
Besides, sami is working on the ordering system for new planes, so in the next game (hopefully) we don't have to queue for too long to get a new plane.
Quote from: Powi on April 25, 2009, 08:49:00 PM
It's not about player slots available. It's the redone used aircraft generation script.
The Jet Age has under 300 players, but there is still total lack of used over 20pax aircraft.
Everything goes from used market including 15y old CV880/990s, DC-6s, DC7s etc...
Every half decent aircraft (all Airbus, Boeing, MD models and even aircraft like L1011, F27&28 and BAC 1-11 has over two years of production queues. Now even Russian aircraft queues are building up, because there is no way to expand if you visit the game only 10 times a day at random clock times.
The queues are long, but not quite "over 2 years".
The A300 has a 12-month queue. The BAC 1-11, a 15-month queue. The F27/28 have less than a 6-month queue (you've got to remember to remove the planes from the list that aren't availabe yet, they won't slow any order you put it now for a current model). The Boeing and MD models do have some long queues though, which is why you're crazy to build an airline around them IMHO as they always end up this way.
I log-on roughly 2-3 times a day, and still manage to do just fine for myself. I'll probably move over 400,000 passengers in the next 4 weeks and control over 30% of the DFW market, 3 times more than my nearest competitor. Just stay away from the most popular models. Sure, I scrounged the used market the first couple days, after that I bought almost all my planes new. The key is to get in early and then just keep orders trickling in. That way, though it'll take a couple months to get the first one, you'll still always be getting some out. If you rely on Used and wait to put orders for new planes in, you'll end up so far behind the curve you'll never get one built.
Quote from: Sigma on April 26, 2009, 05:32:13 AM
The queues are long, but not quite "over 2 years".
The A300 has a 12-month queue. The BAC 1-11, a 15-month queue. The F27/28 have less than a 6-month queue (you've got to remember to remove the planes from the list that aren't availabe yet, they won't slow any order you put it now for a current model). The Boeing and MD models do have some long queues though, which is why you're crazy to build an airline around them IMHO as they always end up this way.
I log-on roughly 2-3 times a day, and still manage to do just fine for myself. I'll probably move over 400,000 passengers in the next 4 weeks and control over 30% of the DFW market, 3 times more than my nearest competitor. Just stay away from the most popular models. Sure, I scrounged the used market the first couple days, after that I bought almost all my planes new. The key is to get in early and then just keep orders trickling in. That way, though it'll take a couple months to get the first one, you'll still always be getting some out. If you rely on Used and wait to put orders for new planes in, you'll end up so far behind the curve you'll never get one built.
I'm based in Canada, so I need aircraft with good range and medium capacity. Many alternate planes have too short range and too small or big capacity for my needs. I went to new plane market as soon as the used market was depleted an I do have over 50 planes on order. The problem was that only the first batch of DC-9s would arrive in 1976 and the rest are arriving 1977 and beyond. What to do in the mean time? Well TU-154s and IL-62s were ready to deliver so now I do have steady stream of aircraft coming in.
The used markets in the current games are NOT good! I log on early in the morning (7am) when I get back from work (6pm) and check again throughout the night until I go to bed (11pm) and I STILL can't get any semi decent used aircraft - it is intolerable! So muchso that I have to consider will I play these games again once they have finished - its ok saying place orders for new aircraft some only have w/t of 6 months _ GREAT - What do I do in the meantime to build up my airline!
It is very clear that used market is not good (in any game). And I think Sami knows that too :)
Major thing to correct is to make used marked equally good (or bad) for everyone. No matter whether you log on daily or hourly.
Here is my 2 cents:
- there should be only old aircrafts (at least 10+ years) in poor condition available
- there should always be aircrafts available
- there is no point to limit availability of old aircrafts
And new aircraft should cause better load factor than old one, which propably is already done.
Ile
The total number of players does seem to have made things a lot worse - I happened to notice when the planes appeared the previous week so out of desperation sat in front of the TV clicking refresh until they arrived the next time (more of less 7 days on). Judging by how quickly the decent planes vanished I wasn't the only one (I think less than 2 minutes for all MD and Boeing). It was a dull Sunday, I can get away with it - work and life preclude doing it again!
Totally agree with having fewer players - I understand the economics involved but judging by the feedback I'm sure there would be plenty of people willing to pay a little more.
Also, if planes can be generated gradually during the week that would be more realistic and mean that people who don't have time or inclination to camp out in the used markets have a chance of some aircraft while they wait for new planes to arrive...
Yes I know what you mean, I have checked out old and new aircaft and is is just as prohibitive especially when you have some greedy airlines out there that have ordered over 100 aircaft of a single type thus totally blocking new orders for years to come on that particular aircraft type - this is yet something else that always appears to crop up in the forums, so what hope have you got of getting anywhere in this game arena - simply far too frustrating >:(
I think youll see some new planes in Air Boom soon. There will be some bankruptcies. Just look at how poorly some airlines are doing.
Yeah thats fine - so what do you do in the meantime to get semidecent used aircraft? At the moment i'm buying rubbish aircraft that are 20 yrs old (jet wise anyway) with a 70% condition, then Im having to spend money to stop them going 'technical' all the damn time - I dont want say used aircraft that are only .6 months old I just would like to see some 8 or 9 year old aircraft with a better condition rate than what there is on the market right now
AAAAAGGHHHHH. There needs to be some kind of reform with the way used aircraft go on the market.
Some people know the exact time and day they appear. I am one of them. I refresh, refresh, refresh around that time, and get first pick (looking for MD-90s). Still, every team I click on "lease this aircraft," they are gone.
This has happened almost every single time (btw it is now sunday at 12:10).
I think this is stupid, and this mad dash is unrealistic. Aircraft should appear on the market at staggered times. I have even heard that some people set their alarms in order to get there when they appear. I do, and I still can't get any!
Is there any way aircraft can appear randomly at random times? Not only would it be more fair, but it would be more entertaining, as people would have to check the used market often, and could get lucky and land a good plane.
If not, these same quick-clickers are going to take the entire used inventory (which are pretty much new in MD-90 case). That is another thing. I was the first to place an order for a brand new MD-90, intending to build a large fleet. However, some made it to the used market before mine were delivered, and now they are entering the used market even though I have orders and have to wait till August of next year!
I know this problem can't be fixed immediately, but things cannot continue like this.
To my opinion, the problem is not that there are too many players as many of you say, but is that there are not enough used aircrafts. get more used aircraft on the market = solving the problem.
Quote from: Filippo on April 26, 2009, 05:10:17 PM
To my opinion, the problem is not that there are too many players as many of you say, but is that there are not enough used aircrafts. get more used aircraft on the market = solving the problem.
Nonono! Any amount of good planes will be bought/leased right away no matter how many of them you put in the used market. People are already ordering loads of new planes at least in the Jet Age game, any more in the used market would just let these airlines grow even more rapidly. Randomizing the time when the used market refreshes or doing it in small bits throughout the week would be a much better solution.
i think there should be more planes on the used aircraft market the aircraft brokers should put more planes into the market until the airlines have grown.
Quote from: ollik on April 26, 2009, 06:18:13 PM
Nonono! Any amount of good planes will be bought/leased right away no matter how many of them you put in the used market. People are already ordering loads of new planes at least in the Jet Age game, any more in the used market would just let these airlines grow even more rapidly. Randomizing the time when the used market refreshes or doing it in small bits throughout the week would be a much better solution.
Exactly. Randomize it. This Sunday at 12:10pm is soooo frustrating and unfair.
This time I got to "are you sure you want to least this aircraft" on the MD-90s. Once I hurriedly clicked yes, without even bothering to change the seat config (I was desperate enough to pay extra money and time later), they were gone. Both of them.
Then I tried to see if I could get some Boeing 767s. All gone, in less than a minute.
RANDOMIZE THE USED AIRCRAFT PLEEAAAASSEE, SAMI!!!!
-----
That was retarded, I was just about to get a 737 just a minute ago, and it was gone by the time I said confirm lease...
I think future games should be limited to 200 airlines.
I've pretty much given up on the used market to be honest! I don't have the patience and I don't want a fleet with all sorts of random old aircraft. However, it means that it has slowed down my expansion considerably... I am now waiting over 3 years for newly ordered A319/320/321 aircraft :'(
yeah... I know... that's a huge pain in the... I'm quite tired too of trying to find decent ac's on the market... and that's nearly impossible by now...
As I suggested before, a broker /agent type as in Airline 6 will solve this issue. We give our specs and they come back with our demand. Also sometimes we order 10 but broker comes back saying we have only 6 ??? still better than nothing. easy, simple and no need loose our sleep or destroy F5 button and the keyboard ;D
Regards
VJC
Quote from: V.Castelino on April 27, 2009, 01:05:16 AM
As I suggested before, a broker /agent type as in Airline 6 will solve this issue. We give our specs and they come back with our demand. Also sometimes we order 10 but broker comes back saying we have only 6 ??? still better than nothing. easy, simple and no need loose our sleep or destroy F5 button and the keyboard ;D
Regards
VJC
And, again, what would happen when 100 people have the same plane on order from the broker?
That wouldn't help a bit. It would just end up making the used aircraft market the same as the new aircraft market: long queues to get anything.
Quote from: NorgeFly on April 26, 2009, 11:45:06 PM
I've pretty much given up on the used market to be honest! I don't have the patience and I don't want a fleet with all sorts of random old aircraft. However, it means that it has slowed down my expansion considerably... I am now waiting over 3 years for newly ordered A319/320/321 aircraft :'(
Oh make that 3 and half years now >:(
over 2 years for 767s :( .
Anyway, looks like the date and time for used plane appearing changed while I was out today. I am sure the "quick-clickers" that snap up all the used planes already know the new time. So now it is even more impossible for the average player to compete. Ughhh.
---
Usually I don´t care - If a game is patched, changed or envisioned in a direction that I think isn´t good for it, I just quit.
In this case, I will for once give my thoughts on what I think is going wrong, because I was absolutely hooked after a few hours playing the game pre patch. It´s really shocking that one single change can alter a gaming experience so drastically, and at least for me take out almost all of the fun that I had the first time.
- used (or should I say new) aircraft market
Many have voiced their concerns about the new system, and to be honest they are right. If you look at the market, say right now, you will find about 300 aircraft - and nobody wants just a single one of them.
Why? Because they know of or saw the "factory new" planes poping on the market every once a week, may it be for just a split second - but still, they know they are there. No one needs or wants 50 Antonov An-24 or 60 Beechcraft 1900C, still It´s the only thing available If you have a life and can´t sit in front of your screen every 3 hours waiting for those 10 seconds to snatch up the 0.2 year old A321´s and B777´s.
Which leads to the next problem - those poor people that didn´t have the chance to grab one of the few "good" planes will order a new one, fine. One at a time. Everytime the money is there another one. The order lists for some models are 3+ years filled already and the game is not even a year old.
In the original game this was not the case - later on yes, but not 8-10 months into a new game. Why? Because eventhough planes were also rare, those available were of use to the players. I can judge as I played the game from day 1.
The biggest problem I see is the introduction of brand new planes to the "used" market, especially long-range high capacity aircraft. Those lucky enough to get their hands on them can take off to revenue heaven right from day 1. There were no factory new planes in the games before, making you lease older planes, making you think about maintenance costs and making you pay for bad decisions. Now you either snatch a new one from the market if you are quick enough or order them 1 by 1 and wait for 2 years before your airline starts doing business, or you could also lease those 50 Antonov, readily available at all times.
It may not have been 100% world-like realistic the way the market worked before, but for the overall gaming experience it was unequally better than what we have now. This systems needs a complete rework for it to be usefull again and not game breaking as it is now, In my opinion. If planes would appear on the market at random times, not once a week at 12:00 that would help alot.
- aircraft classes / configurations
I really had my doubts for a while if I should talk about this, but I feel it is necessary.
I dind´t want to believe it until I tried it out myself. Seating comfort has absolutely no influence in game whatsoever. Combine this fact with what I have said earlier about brand new, super efficient planes being available for some on the used market and there you have your "mega" airlines, earning hundreds of millions after 6 month of gameplay.
For example, lease a brand new A330, wait for 2 weeks, fill it up to the max with high density seats, say 20 FC / 80 BC / 280 EC and put it on a longhaul route, and enjoy the 400k it will easily make every day! You don´t even have to reduce your ticket prices, the pax fly anyway!
If you think comfort makes a difference and you configure your planes accordingly don´t be discouraged if the plane only makes 200k. Try it out, it works. This is how a handfull of players just "take off" right from the start, while the majority who doesn´t know grows along at a much slower pace.
Some airlines have already ordered 300+ new planes, 10 month into the game, go figure out how much that amounts to. This is how they earn that much money right from the start.
This system is seriously flawed and has to change, and very soon too - otherwise everyone will and should be filling their planes with high density seating and you can do away with the other seating options completely. Combined with the "new" used aircraft market, and the possibilities it provides for some, it´s just to obvious to be fun any longer.
So much for priorities concerning realism.
Well, my thoughts - sorry for the wall of text. I will probably quit for now and peek back in a few months from now, hoping that some of the points mentioned have changed in a positive way. I really hope so, because at the core this game is very good - but at the moment some things are seriously out of order.
cheers gaffair
You forgot one MAJOR detail (and I agree with 100% of what you are saying)
Those people who obviously have the time to dominate this game. I think we all know who they are.
They get the great planes early.
That means they can order a ton of new planes early.
With all of their new large planes, they get to order more new planes.
By the time that everyone else can order new planes, the build queues are 3 years out.
You then look at why, and you see the same names down the whole build queue.
Hell, I wanted to make a small airlines out of Cancun Mexico and there arent even any 18 pax planes on the used market at all.
Essentially, those few players who get planes early win. They have a HUGE advantage over everyone else because they are able to make a ton more revenue quicker. In Poker, it is called a table bully. They can simply throw their money in all of the time.
ALSO, BIG THING I ASKED TO BE CHANGED. These same players also know what day a new plane will be announced. Without varying them up, they will simply stockpile money and order 40 on the first day. People like me with jobs come home and the plane that just came on the market is already a 2+ year wait.
This is why I tried to get people behind waiting for the new production system. The used market wouldn't be such a problem if the queues for all the good aircraft weren't 3 years long already.
I have to say, that the core game is good, but there is alot of people saying what I said when I originally started this post. I got moaned at for 'moaning' in another couple of threads and esentially those threads more or less were saying how hard the new game appeared - maybe SAMI was right and I did moan a bit too much :-[ , but why has none of the developers put their thougths into this thread?
I really would like to hear the dev's thoughts and whether there are going to be any changes to make the used aircraft and new aircraft market systems 'better' and fairer :-\
I totally agree with Swiftus27 and professional essay writer gaffair
Sami, not to be rude, but something has to change.This is a fantastic game, but it could be even better with those modifications.
Thankyou
I'm sure Sami is aware of this problem. Fear not, he does not want this game to be un-enjoyable. While one of the newest upgrade seems to be a step back, the game will surely be developed to the way you all have showed.
Meanwhile express you deep emotions here, but don't abandon the game yet ;)
Warning: Completely unrelated
I am actually loving this.
Make the game more expensive based on the size class of the airport you are going to base yourself in. They already have a numerical value, why not make the game 10cr + airport size.
Idea #2: To be tied into idea #1
Once you have owned and operated an airline, you can never use the same base city ever again.
This way, people will filter to all other airports. It also helps those of us trying to have fun at a non-giant airport an incentive. Lastly, this will force Margic Carpet, Chang, and those few professional F5 pressers, to have to learn new tactics.
To me, this sort of helps with the problem. But it is only a causal relationship.
The way things goes on at the moment are not properly nice, I'm also of this opinion. On the other side if one could grab a "good plane" every 5 min. you also were part of those people dominate the game or in alternative each player could enjoy hundreds of a/c within the home base.
Refresh the used market at random time is a basic shortly step to put all the player in an equal position but it do not represent "the solution" to avoid mega airlines. Collecting plane is certainly an option but do not has to be the only option in playing the game as it is now. It is not possible to have and/or to put in order so many planes after only few months game playing. I think this is a strategic simulation and thus every step should be more accurate and ponderated. Not just smash on F5 as collegues said!!
As the game is now I do not found it tragic if you need 3+ years to obtain a new plane but the problem is what to do in the meantime?? Refresh and refresh and refresh ?? c'mon... :'(
I really believe this game is something special but it risks seriously to bore to death if you do not make something. I´m too sure Sami will think that up
Well... yeah... this game needs a major rework on the plane market... right now I am just bored to death with it... and really tired.
Idea #3:
Limit orders per day to three.
Give us a bunch more money.
Used market only user generated. This means that only users can put planes on the market.
Bankrupt airlines don't go to the used market (or if they do, it must be spread out over time... consider them to be a part of the bankruptcy proceedings)
Yes, this would make for a very slow startup. It can be done very easily right now without major programming. Perhaps start a new game this way???
Quote from: swiftus27 on April 27, 2009, 06:14:41 PM
Idea #3:
Limit orders per day to three.
Already active, since 30 minutes ago, reported in Changelog (https://www.airwaysim.com/forum/index.php/topic,3529.msg35473.html#new).
QuoteGive us a bunch more money.
At which stage? In the beginning? Now?
If in the beginning, it makes no change, and the money issue was already tested in Beta. It's no use giving too much money.
If you mean to give it now, what's the meaning? If everyone just goes and buys all the planes they need at the same time, there's no skill at all. If you just want to get all the planes you want, play a private game.
QuoteUsed market only user generated. This means that only users can put planes on the market.
This is the goal already, but since the game is limited time only, there has to be computer generated aircraft or no1 would get any aircraft at start. It would also take years until airplanes became available in the used aircraft market. Also, since this game tries to be as accurate in terms of real life as it can be, it would be unrealistic to start in 2000 and have no used aircraft whatsoever.
QuoteBankrupt airlines don't go to the used market (or if they do, it must be spread out over time... consider them to be a part of the bankruptcy proceedings)
I believe this is how it goes, not sure, though. But there has been discussion about this, so I believe it is implemeted.
Well... what I think is that right now that new rule will only prevent smaller players to get even with the big ones since most of them have been able to snatch dozens of ac's from the used market. The thing is that since the game have already started and you have already really big airlines... THEY will always have this advantage over the others.
https://www.airwaysim.com/forum/index.php/topic,3529.msg35465.html#msg35465
Quote from: digifreak on April 27, 2009, 06:25:23 PM
The thing is that since the game have already started and you have already really big airlines... THEY will always have this advantage over the others.
try to understand also that game is in-developing and nobody is perfect... Sami is doing his best to face the many needs here around
Quote from: bukatino2000 on April 27, 2009, 07:46:19 PM
try to understand also that game is in-developing and nobody is perfect... Sami is doing his best to face the many needs here around
I agree with bukatino, I think that we cant really ask more of SAMI as this moment in time, he has listened to our frustrations (mine more than most :-[) and he has adjusted the game sytem accordingly. Unfortunately nothing can be done about the 'big guns' in the current games; but hopefully if the adjustments SAMI has done work better and the market sytem is better than it has been, then the games now on in should be better for all. Hopefully all future games will also now have a more even playing field - esp if the times aircraft come to market are more random, but as I said for the moment I think SAMI has done as much as posible for the current games ;)
Wow.. Some 60% of the planes in Jet Age #1 vanished 8)
At least don't have to scroll through so many pages of unusable aircraft ::)
You could also think that bigger airlines just add realism.
There is always bigger and smaller airlines in real life, why not in AWS???
Sami, I now this is stupid, but may I please have more DC 10 40 or 30 on the market please?
Quote from: Filippo on April 28, 2009, 04:09:31 PM
Sami, I now this is stupid, but may I please have more DC 10 40 or 30 on the market please?
Please read this: https://www.airwaysim.com/forum/index.php/topic,3529.msg35465.html#msg35465
Quote from: sami on April 28, 2009, 04:12:55 PM
Please read this: https://www.airwaysim.com/forum/index.php/topic,3529.msg35465.html#msg35465
Is the new aircraft market going to have faster production times?
Quote from: Williamsfilms on April 28, 2009, 04:20:39 PM
Is the new aircraft market going to have faster production times?
No.?
The DC 10 really disappear on the used market, and you can't buy them new. Can there please be more. This lack totally halted my expansion. I stayed a whole afternoon looking for them but i found none. Please, I now the market system has been updated, but there really are not enough DC10s (especially
DC10 - 30 and 40)
Thankyou
Quote* Used aircraft market is rotated every day (but with less planes than the previous weekly rotate). = Brokers put up more planes for sale and remove planes from sale that have been there for the longest time.
* Aircraft are rotated on the list more efficiently. If the plane is not sold it is removed from the list faster. If the plane has been on the used list too many times, it will be scrapped as broker assumes there is no use / demand for that aircraft and they cannot sell it.
This is NOT working. In "Air Travel Boom" we have october 1996 now. I have been looking for used aircrafts hundreds of times during 1996 and i have seen the same aircrafts hundreds of times (range 2000+).
2 x Concorde
10 x Ilyushin Il-62M
2 x Tupolev Tu-144
No widebodys, no longrange, nothing interesting...
Waiting time for new widebody airplanes is at least 3-4 years.
So what can I do in meantime? nothing... can someone call me in 3 years?
Something have to change SOON!
the problem is not that planes are released in the wrong time used market; the real problem is that there are not enough planes to lease. Especially the ones out of production like the DC 10, 707, L1011 and so on. After the release times of aircrafts, no we have to solve this problem.
A small change that can make the game a little bit more realistic and make it easier for everyone to get an aircraft:
When an airlines bankruptcies I think that it should be a public information together with a date/time when the aircrafts will be released.
Maybe there can be some kind of auction, so the price, not "first click" will decide who will get the aircraft.
The used aircraft market has gotten worse since the changes. I like the changes that were made, but something in the implementation has caused even fewer aircraft to appear in the used market. I've added 3 planes in the past 4 real life days of pretty regular checking of the market. I just feel lucky to have the 30 planes I have now, because it would be impossible to grow an airline right now since next to zero long haul aircraft show up in the used market anymore and the queues for every single long range aircraft from MD-11s to 747-400s to A340s are 4 years long or more. Air Travel Boom #1 is basically unplayable at this point. A select few were able to build up enough planes when the market actually produced some and now they have monopolized new aircraft production with stupidly large orders for 50 leased 747-400s and such. We will never have a chance to catch them at this point. Sami, I am absolutely begging you, please do not start Air Travel Boom #2 without the new production slot system.
sorry, what was wrong with the old aircraft market ( the one in game 1-3). This new one is creating all sorts of broblems and the game is not as fun as it was before. Now it's a bit frustrating because, since ques are long and no good aircrafts are present, chances to catch up are always smaller. I remember that with my first airline during the first period I continued leasing and I waited to reach an amount so that I could lease that DC10. Now i have millions in he bank but nothing decent to spend on that will arrive soon.
My suggestion is to increase drammatically the amount of aircrafts on the used market.
Quote from: flygresor on May 01, 2009, 08:33:58 PM
2 x Concorde
10 x Ilyushin Il-62M
2 x Tupolev Tu-144
This is really really boring... 2h later (2000 miles+):
4 x Concorde
15 x Ilyushin Il-62M
1 x Tupolev Tu-144
I've written before, for example here (https://www.airwaysim.com/forum/index.php/topic,3529.msg35465.html#msg35465), that aircraft cannot just magically appear to the world and that's what we're after here. Certain number of aircraft have been built of each model and if all of them are in use with the airlines then there cannot be any more of those unless more are ordered as new models.
I'd expect some popular models to appear after the first firms start going bust soon. The basic concept of the used aircraft market will not change but some tuning/minor adjustments will always be made - end of story.
Quote from: blair21088 on May 01, 2009, 09:22:22 PM
The used aircraft market has gotten worse since the changes. I like the changes that were made, but something in the implementation has caused even fewer aircraft to appear in the used market. I've added 3 planes in the past 4 real life days of pretty regular checking of the market. I just feel lucky to have the 30 planes I have now, because it would be impossible to grow an airline right now since next to zero long haul aircraft show up in the used market anymore and the queues for every single long range aircraft from MD-11s to 747-400s to A340s are 4 years long or more. Air Travel Boom #1 is basically unplayable at this point. A select few were able to build up enough planes when the market actually produced some and now they have monopolized new aircraft production with stupidly large orders for 50 leased 747-400s and such. We will never have a chance to catch them at this point. Sami, I am absolutely begging you, please do not start Air Travel Boom #2 without the new production slot system.
exactly. that's why i quit and BKed.
Quote from: sami on May 01, 2009, 10:30:21 PM
I'd expect some popular models to appear after the first firms start going bust soon.
Well hopefully a lot of companies are bankrupted then very soon. Now it's just hoping that I'm at the PC right when that happens, because currently the Boeing market in Jet Age is really disappointing me, to put it nicely.
3-5 years waiting for a new plane - no clue if I want those planes then. Or if there will still be routes available by then. Especially now that I'm a small player, this is a huge risk.
I'm definitely enjoying this game much less than game 1.
Quote from: sami on May 01, 2009, 10:30:21 PM
I've written before, for example here (https://www.airwaysim.com/forum/index.php/topic,3529.msg35465.html#msg35465), that aircraft cannot just magically appear to the world and that's what we're after here. Certain number of aircraft have been built of each model and if all of them are in use with the airlines then there cannot be any more of those unless more are ordered as new models.
I'd expect some popular models to appear after the first firms start going bust soon. The basic concept of the used aircraft market will not change but some tuning/minor adjustments will always be made - end of story.
I fully agree. Tuning "bankrupcy rate" :-\ for those involved -- can provide at the end enough planes on the market.
Yeah, I kind of think that, while the current used market stinks (it's probably worse because the new ordering system isn't in these games), it will have a good result. Once airlines starting BKing, along with brokers, I think it will all work out. A lot of those airlines ordering 150+ planes at once (one in particular which ordered over 150 747s) is going to have a rough time unless they really have a good strategy and a lot of free time.
I think the new used market is fine. We just need a better plane ordering system which sami has said numerous times is in development.
I went in it not long ago and I ordered a 737-300 brand new because there was no good jet planes for a reasonable leasing price in the Used Aircraft. I thought, yep a great plane to start the business. It told me that I would get it in the next 2 years (game time). I was like "WHAT!!!!!!!!!!!!! :o" :laugh:
The most i saw that ordered the 737 was about 20 i think but I was the 134th person to order it, so it all added up. I decided to quit it and wait for the next Air Travel Boom game with the new ordering system. Which I hope is soon. The problem is, people going well with there airlines can afford to get 150+ 747's and people only wanting one or two have to wait afterwards. I'm pretty sure anyways.
I too noted that thanks to huge orders by rich airlines order slots are banked for many years for example these are the earliest month you can get the below aircraft-
A320 Group-October 2002
A330 Group-January 2002
Early 737's-December 1999
757 Group-January 1999
767 Group-October 2000
October 2002 for A320's that's not for 6 game years or over one month in real time.Now if were paying for a game I dont think we want to have to be scouting the used aircraft market all the time nor halt our expansion for 6 game years. There needs to be a limit on the amount one person can order from a certain production list and it needs to be lower than 50 aircraft. There are companies that have 140+ aircraft in service with 175+ orders. Come on I think we all want a fair game!
as i said, this could be solved if there were more used aircraft to lease.
Quote from: Filippo on May 02, 2009, 09:50:58 AM
as i said, this could be solved if there were more used aircraft to lease.
Would these used aircraft just appear out of thin air? There was a certain amount of aircraft in the beginning of the game and, surprise, the popular ones were the first to run out. Let's wait for companies to bankrupt, renew their fleets, just sell or lease out their aircraft for profit or to raise some cash. One of the biggest downsides of this game has been the lack of a user-driven used aircraft market and the changes in the used market have been a step in the right direction, IMHO. Now the problem is that the current aircraft ordering system is (Umm... How should i put it?) crap, but that should be fixed in the next version.
infact, the new aircraft production system is "crap" (I would use slow) because there are not enough decent used aircraft.
Quote from: Kontio on May 02, 2009, 09:59:48 AM
Would these used aircraft just appear out of thin air? There was a certain amount of aircraft in the beginning of the game and, surprise, the popular ones were the first to run out. Let's wait for companies to bankrupt, renew their fleets, just sell or lease out their aircraft for profit or to raise some cash. One of the biggest downsides of this game has been the lack of a user-driven used aircraft market and the changes in the used market have been a step in the right direction, IMHO. Now the problem is that the current aircraft ordering system is (Umm... How should i put it?) crap, but that should be fixed in the next version.
Agreed completely.
Quote from: Filippo on May 02, 2009, 10:01:57 AM
infact, the new aircraft production system is "crap" (I would use slow) because there are not enough decent used aircraft.
As far as I know used aircraft are no longer "produced" as the game progresses. Many players call that crap/slow, I call it realistic and good for the game. In the old used aircraft generation system it was as if there was a parallel universe where airlines ordered new aircraft, flew them on routes for a number of years and when they wanted to get rid of them the aircraft were sent through a wormhole to our game universe to be sold on the used market. In the current model there was a limited number of used aircraft available in the beginning to account for airlines in the past (which for some reason disappeared when the game began ;)) and to get us started. Now that the game is running where do we get more used aircraft? Well, new aircraft tend to turn into used aircraft when someone uses them for a while. Those aircraft appear on the used market when owners/lessees decide to let them go. Just my 3 cents.
Well, it is right to keep it as realisitc as possible, I totally agree with it.
However, there're 3355 Boeing planes delivered between 1989-1996 in real world, considering we only have 1764 in service in Boom Age. I feel that maybe the used planes especially for Boeing and Airbus were "generated" not enough at the first place.
When the route is empty and you don't have planes, that would be panic.
Now we only can hope some big players get busted, but without much competetion, less bankrupcies will occur as most of us are 2nd gen players.
Before I spent 2 hours a day with this game, now I spend much less time because I got nothing much to do.
Also remember, that many bigger companies have made their big orders to replace their older fleet. What this means, is that it's very likely that more used aircraft appear on the market as soon as the new deliveries are starting to come.
I think that I should change my user name to DC10 lover ;D
According to Wikipedia, a total of 446 DC 10 were made, but according to the aircraft statistics page there are only 164 in game. That means that there are almost 300 of these planes missing! :o
Lets also say that 200 of these planes have been scarpped, were did the other go? I think that those planes.. (about hundred)would certainly help the used market
Quote from: Jps on May 02, 2009, 11:14:10 AM
Also remember, that many bigger companies have made their big orders to replace their older fleet. What this means, is that it's very likely that more used aircraft appear on the market as soon as the new deliveries are starting to come.
It makes sense but if I am the big player the first thing is not replace my old fleet as long as they still can generate profit. I will use the new arrived planes to serve empty routes so you can't just rely on that.
Sami wishes a player supplied used market would be established, however certainly there is a such big gap.
Sami, please, increase the number of used planes. I am really spending my entire week ends to look for planes (especially DC10) without findoing even one. In the past 4 days I only snatched 1.
Pretty please :'( :(
Quote from: Filippo on May 02, 2009, 12:05:17 PM
Sami, please, increase the number of used planes. I am really spending my entire week ends to look for planes (especially DC10) without findoing even one. In the past 4 days I only snatched 1.
Pretty please :'( :(
Hi Filippo, things are that there are currently 9050 members in the game each one having needs, is important to understand it!
I think some of the crap aircraft can be cleaned out. Who in 1976 was still flying Airspeed Ambassadors?
Quote from: ekaneti on May 02, 2009, 12:30:47 PM
I think some of the crap aircraft can be cleaned out. Who in 1976 was still flying Airspeed Ambassadors?
They will be gone automatically if nobody buys them for some time. One-by-one of course so it takes a while.
And also to others .. Please do not post all the time to generate more aircraft model XYZ "because I need it", it won't happen.
Quote from: Pai on May 02, 2009, 11:06:58 AM
Well, it is right to keep it as realisitc as possible, I totally agree with it.
However, there're 3355 Boeing planes delivered between 1989-1996 in real world, considering we only have 1764 in service in Boom Age. I feel that maybe the used planes especially for Boeing and Airbus were "generated" not enough at the first place.
When the route is empty and you don't have planes, that would be panic.
Sami, if this is true then it would justify adding more used aircraft to the game "out of thin air." Were enough generated in the first place, to mimic the amount in service at the game start? If not, then the low number if used aircraft in the game is not realistic, and I thought realism was what we were shooting for here.
Quote from: toyotaboy95 on May 01, 2009, 10:40:13 PM
exactly. that's why i quit and BKed.
I totaly agree with this too. first you struggle so hard with small aircraft on regional routes competing with jets etc., and after months of scrapping up every penny you have, it is a very very risky venture to use your cash for an aircraft order which, at this rate will arrive 3-4 years later. meanwhile the big operators continue to order jets and extend this waiting list even further. Actualy its not only jets, you look at any of the modern prop aircraft, ie: ATR, Bombardier and there are long waits for those too. Another thing, unrelated, i have some routes where i am the sole operator, yet my loads seem to go down, big operators seem to flood other markets and still seem to grow.
Living in Japan i know that their is a huge demand for the haneda Sapporo route, but by no means can it support something like 60 daily flights. Did some basic math and that is one flight to Chitose every 24 minutes and their is still room to grow capacity on that route according to the game. This does not account for all other domestic and some international routes into and out of Haneda.
My opinion, but there does seem to be some serious flaws in the game.
I said it before, but never got an answer, what was wrong with the old aircraft market that made the game much more enjoyable?
It has been answered already many times here.
oh yes :-[ I must have missed it!
To answer the OP, yes its all very frustrating. This is a game meant for entertainment and enjoyment and that is all gone because my hands are tied to the aircraft I have or waiting weeks on end(real time, years game time) for a new aircraft orders to come through since the line for them are well into the hundreds. The game is what, 13 weeks long?
I know its been said there won't be unlimited numbers, which is fine, but there has to be a happy medium between nothing and unlimited. I joined in the middle of AWS #1 and didn't have the problem I do now.
This really looks bad for new customers who join now because there is totally nothing for them to use.
The market is indeed frustrating. I have now a backlog of ~60 new aircraft, the latest being delivered in 2002. I have even ordered some Russian aircraft to avoid the backlog of Boeing and Airbus. I don't take even the time anymore to take a look at the used market, it's just a waste of time. There is too few available to make everything work. I agree that the availability was excessive in previous games, but this way it is exactly the opposite. I hope that sami can fix that more "useful" aircraft come available, because the game now consists of waiting instead of actively managing your airline.
Regards,
Florian ;)
EDIT : The game is right about Haneda-Sapporo, You see mainly narrowbody flights there while in reality its sees 30 flights a day, but with 767/777/744.
I'm playing all three games, never really use the used plane market in Jet Age 1 and Boom, just once in a while check in there to see if I'm lucky, but never found anything. In Jet Age II you can find a 727/737 or DC-10 about 25% of the time, so I guess for about 200 players the market is calibrated well. To bad that 200 players makes the game too easy.
Fully agreed with the topic, its driven me up the wall. Too many players in the game, no cap on aircraft orders, pretty much nothing in the used market, and a ridiculous competitive market. All above are valid arguments but I miss the old days when it was a a maximum of 350 players and aircraft grew on trees, sniff
The game proceeds extremely slowly in this way. I agree that the market is calibrated for 200 people, not for 350
I tried to warn people...