now the turnaround time was fixed.
But short route shouldn't require that much turnaround time.(747=120mins+80 mins cushion time=200mins!)
turnaround time should variable like rwy require length.
you can have a faster turning time when you operate a short route.(you have less thing to clean up,less catering time,less refuel time).
We turn a regional route 747-400 in an hour in Hong Kong. ;)
Same goes for the 767-200.... 80 min + 40 min cushion = 120 minutes!! on LHR-FRA, MAN, and AMS...
I would agree with the min...
A300 - 70 mins? almost as long as my flight sector....
rgds,
North
Quote from: Northwesterly on August 27, 2008, 03:27:59 PM
I would agree with the min...
A300 - 70 mins? almost as long as my flight sector....
rgds,
North
I think it should be 50-55 mins according to turn around time chart
for the case of AB6
Quote from: Northwesterly on August 27, 2008, 03:27:59 PM
I would agree with the min...
A300 - 70 mins? almost as long as my flight sector....
rgds,
North
I dont think that is an unreasonable turn time. Given the pax count can be 250+ along with cargo.
I think it should be 60 minutes, but 70 doesnt seem too crazy IMO.
I would agree some of the turnaround times are to high. For example, it is very possible to turnaround a 737-800 in 30-35 mins, it would therefore be easily done to turnaround a 737-600 in the same time but the minimum turnaround is now 40 mins. If a 737-600 is being turned around in 40 mins, 25% chance of delay is quite high in my opinion as this would be ample time for an efficient airline to perform the turnaround procedures.
Each 737NG must have the same turnaround time as they are in the same fleet group as the schedules / routes are inter-changeable or whatever the word is. Same goes for other planes, like A320 series.
Hi,
I would suggest to reduce the minimum ground time for a B757-200 from 110 minutes to
50 minutes. We see this aircraft type being used on different type of flights. On any
intercontinental flight I would agree with a MGT of 110 minutes, but for domestic
and flights within the continent many airlines will apply a MGT of approx. 50 mins.
I can not imagine BA, AY, IB used to have a 110 min MGT on their European flights.
Hope you'll be able to to update this even though the new games have already started.
Kind regards,
Peter Jansen
Same with B767..
Quote from: Samo on August 02, 2009, 08:43:53 PM
Same with B767..
It's a problem with all aircraft actually. ;)
I suggest a flexible turnaround time at couple of months ago.. :-\
Was the 757 certified for ETOPS?
EDIT: Some engines has 120 and others 180. Never saw many fly across the Atlantic, did we?
Delta and Northwest fly 757 between US and Europe.
Hi!
What about give better turn around times to the a/cs? I've checked the turn around times of various a/cs in service with different companies and I observed that some "big" a/cs like the A330 (both 200 and 300) here have quite long turn around. I was in Muscat in august and I saw an Emirates A332 being turned around in 55-60 minutes instead of the 70 mins specified in this game. I even know that an Etihad flight to Doha, Qatar has a turn around time of 50 mins for an A330. Is it possible to do something about these odd turn around times? Maybe lower them by 15-20 mins should be ok...
No. Please dont. I like it as is. Honestly, I rarely see a large plane that pulls up to the gate, de-boards everyone, clean the plane, re-stock the plane, re-boards everyone, and push back in 20-30 minutes.
I believe in AWS that the turnaround time is also inclusive of taxi time. On some airports this is minimal (<5m) but on many airports it can be much, much more on average. And the system has to average it all out.
Quote from: Sigma on September 15, 2009, 03:34:18 PM
I believe in AWS that the turnaround time is also inclusive of taxi time. On some airports this is minimal (<5m) but on many airports it can be much, much more on average. And the system has to average it all out.
This would explain a lot, and it would make so much more sense.
Have you seen how far out runway 18R/36L is at Schiphol? I play FSX on occasion and taxiing out there takes forever.
yeah thats true, it takes forever to get to the "Polderbaan"
i think about 15-20 minutes without even considering the "traffic jams"
How about Kai Tak? ;) Spot 1 is just located next to the take off zone of runway 13/ end of runway 31 :laugh: Although taxi to runway 31/ from runway 13 will be so long that just like a harbor visiting tour for pax ;D
If taxi time is put into this sector, so the traffic delay will be the gate hold or staying in a holding pattern? ;)
Taxi time is included in flight times.
For turnaround times a previous thread exists and the rough idea would be to make them variable according to the route type. Domestic turnaround on 757 will be shorter than longhaul route turnaround. No exact plans though.
I remember that Air Inter (IT/ITF) used to operate A300 on European routes. They had 314 seats on the a/c and a turn around time of 35 minutes was not uncommon for such a large aircraft on short to medium haul routes. Air Inter was a precursor of the current no frills airlines.
Anyway, I've just talked to an Etihad Airways pilot flying on the A330/340 and he told me that a A330-200 can be turned around in less than an hour: on their flights to Baharain and Kuwait, the a/c is usually turned around in 45 minutes, well below the 70 min required by the game.
In reality, turn-around is the time taken from blocks-on to blocks-off. In our virtual world, the time we call "turn-around" seems to refer to the time between Arrival on and Departure from the runway, thus including taxi-times and departure delays.
An Etihad A340 can get turned around in (less than) an hour, but you might add 15 minutes to that time in Kuwait and 30 minutes at Heathrow in order to account for delays on the ground. I suppose it would be more realistic to consider the airport (and the aircraft type) rather than just the aircraft type when calculating the wheels down to wheels up time, but that may just make the game more complex than what is comfortable.
Just my 2c.
Regards
Richard
Quote from: Riger on September 18, 2009, 09:35:17 AM
In reality, turn-around is the time taken from blocks-on to blocks-off. In our virtual world, the time we call "turn-around" seems to refer to the time between Arrival on and Departure from the runway, thus including taxi-times and departure delays.
Apparently not:
Quote from: sami on September 16, 2009, 10:51:32 PM
Taxi time is included in flight times.
If we need to add time to the standard turn around time it would be ok: it's complicated but realistic. What I do not find realistic is to turn around an a/c in a time much higher than it's true time. What do you think about it? If it's not possible to shorten the turn around time to 35 mins as I mentioned in my first post, so why not reduce them anyway? If too short turn around times are not realistic, I think that even too long turn around times aren't so...
The game already has the information for international (short and long) and domestic. Perhaps, we set the times dependant on on what type of flight it is.
The whole turnaround time is not that simple, so just nailing something to be "unrealistic" is only something what you think of unrealistic, possibly.
As it depends on for example (just some things I came up in 2 mins):
* the type of route, ie. how long it is & how long time the passengers have to "mess" the cabin
* what kind of service onboard is made (more service, more cleaning)
* is the flight catered and/or fuelled? (can fuelling be made pax boarding?)
* is the plane cleaned? if yes, how "heavy" cleaning and is it made by FA's or real cleaners?
* what kind of airport facilities are available? bus transport via apron or jetways, or perhaps two jetways for big planes?
* how the airline and handling organizations have been made? are they efficient and how the processes are made?
In Japan a longhaul A340 can be turned in 60 minutes if there is really a rush as there the whole team is really taking part of it and feel that it's their pride in questions (kinda) if the plane is late and they need to catch up. In Europe a normal "legacy" carrier normally turns A319 in 45-60(!) minutes after a 2hr intl flight if all services are included and depending on the organization, while a low cost carrier instists that turnaround at outstations cannot exceed 25 minutes.
So it's not merely as simple as you think.
But to start with .. it can be separated by the flight type / length. And also smaller turnarounds could be allowed but then you'd have to possibly cope with longer delays.
I know CX's 744 can turn around at Tokyo in ~60mins, return to Hong Kong via Taipei, but nothing will be loaded besides from cargo and pax, everything have to be done before leaving Hong Kong.
It is no need to do everything in every turn around, maybe we can set 3 types of turn around time setting: full, base (normal) and outer station (short), require full turn around time every some days, normal turn around time for every some flight hours, and others can use short turn around
Yep, I think that the division of turn around time between short-medium-long haul would be fine! :)
Quote from: sami on September 18, 2009, 11:15:55 AM
* the type of route, ie. how long it is & how long time the passengers have to "mess" the cabin
* what kind of service onboard is made (more service, more cleaning)
* is the flight catered and/or fuelled? (can fuelling be made pax boarding?)
* is the plane cleaned? if yes, how "heavy" cleaning and is it made by FA's or real cleaners?
* what kind of airport facilities are available? bus transport via apron or jetways, or perhaps two jetways for big planes?
* how the airline and handling organizations have been made? are they efficient and how the processes are made?
In future versions it would be nice for the airline to decide the level of in flight service that they provide. This could affect (by a modifier) the turn around times as well as expenses and, of course, Route Image. Also, a more stringent morale modifier could seriously affect turn around times.
GM
This has been an issue raised since beta. I have been away from this game for months and just came back - and found turnaround times basically unchanged since then. I think it is really poor - widebodies on domestic runs... e.g. A300's (Thai Airways for example) and B767-300's (Qantas for example) turn in 40 minutes or 45 minutes regularly. The flight times on short routes are already higher than real life, so the added increased turnarounds means it is impossible to run a widebody shorthaul operation like real life airlines do. I will continue to wait for this to be improved.
:o
Welcome back my kangaroo friend!
Talentz
I'm just dragging this thread up again since it seems like there's still haven't been any changes to the turn time calculations and I feel this is a big issue to the game.
My suggestion is to make the turn times depending on ether the type of the flight (domestic/international short/international long) or buy the real length of the flight and combine that with the number of seats of the aircraft.
What type of aircraft is actually quite irrelevant, turning a 50seat full premium configured plane should be a lot quicker than turning one with 150 economy seats. And a 1 hour domestic leg shouldn't need the same time as a 13h longhaul.
One of the reasons I want the seatcount to be a factor in this, is that otherwise a fleet renewal could screw your schedule a lot!
I'm in the proses of swapping my DC-8s in for B767s. The B767 takes 45min longer time to turn (90min vs. 135min) on the same flight even if they have the exact same amount of seats. That's really not realistic, if anything, the B767 should be faster to turn since it has dual aisles.
Quote from: tofen on December 12, 2009, 01:30:09 PM
My suggestion is to make the turn times depending on ether the type of the flight (domestic/international short/international long) or buy the real length of the flight and combine that with the number of seats of the aircraft.
Yes, something like that (route type) it will be.
Not sure if it's a v.1.2 item yet.
Quote from: sami on December 12, 2009, 01:37:17 PM
Yes, something like that (route type) it will be.
Not sure if it's a v.1.2 item yet.
Sounds good. Better in my opinion to fix the "problems" in current versions before adding new features.
What about some easy formula like this (for 1% delay):
for domestic and short international: ("number of pax" * 0.3) + 10, and round to closest 5min. (the + 10 is so that very small planes still will have some time on the ground)
That would give:
19seater: 15min
50seater: 25min
100seater: 40min
150seater: 55min
200seater: 70min
300seater: 100min
400seater: 130min
for long international: ("number of pax" * 0.4), and round to closest 5min.
That would give:
150seater: 60min
200seater: 80min
300seater: 120min
400seater: 160min
Any chance of this making it into 1.3?
tofens formula actually seems like a good idea, except that it needs some tweaking.
With his formula, turning a 738 doing a OSL-TRD would take over an hour, were it takes 25-30 minutes realtime.
Quote from: sami on December 12, 2009, 01:37:17 PM
Yes, something like that (route type) it will be.
Not sure if it's a v.1.2 item yet.
I wondered if this could be linked to the type of airline (as in this (https://www.airwaysim.com/forum/index.php/topic,22083.0.html) thread.
As alluded to in previous posts, this would allow short haul, low cost style carriers to retain dominance in their sectors. 25 minute turnarounds on 737-800s are impossible in AWS at the momnet, but Ryanair (for example) utilises 25 minute turnarounds and as seen from this (http://www.flightontime.info/scheduled/scheduled.html) link it resides at 19th for punctuality in 2010 in the UK, ahead of many carriers with whom delays would perhaps be less expected.
Quote from: tofen on December 12, 2009, 02:10:15 PM
Sounds good. Better in my opinion to fix the "problems" in current versions before adding new features.
What about some easy formula like this (for 1% delay):
for domestic and short international: ("number of pax" * 0.3) + 10, and round to closest 5min. (the + 10 is so that very small planes still will have some time on the ground)
That would give:
19seater: 15min
50seater: 25min
100seater: 40min
150seater: 55min
200seater: 70min
300seater: 100min
400seater: 130min
for long international: ("number of pax" * 0.4), and round to closest 5min.
That would give:
150seater: 60min
200seater: 80min
300seater: 120min
400seater: 160min
The percent multipliers must change as we progress through the generations of a/c. Meaning a 707 should have a much longer turn time than a 757 and then in turn a 787.
Quote from: swiftus27 on February 08, 2011, 07:00:04 PM
The percent multipliers must change as we progress through the generations of a/c. Meaning a 707 should have a much longer turn time than a 757 and then in turn a 787.
That's a good idea.
Relating to this how come the Tu-114 has such a ridiculously short turn around time (same as a B737)? (Not that I am complaining).
It has a shorter turnaround time than an IL-18, which is another Soviet four-engine airliner.
Except the 114 uses the bomb bay for quicker egress
Re-living this thread as I have come up with something that made me wonder following Southwest Airlines operations at ATL following Air Tran merger. WN is known for their short turnaround time. Yee... they're not fast as they say, but still are still quick. And their game is point-to-point all the way me thinks.
Well, ATL is mainly a hub-and-spoke connecting airport and DL's fortress, thus having awfully lots of flights per day (DL alone has more than 600 flights a day). So....WN won't be able to deliver normal turnarounds at ATL, let alone short ones, as I suppose the slots are drying up in this very moment (i'm talking about tarmac space, jetways, ground service and of course ATC and runway limitations). BUT, they should be able to turn the 737 around at their destination (small uncongested airport) for a relatively shorter time without penalty. The same for any airline.
So I was thinking, could the turnaround time be based not only by type but also influenced by airport service availability (ie, slots)?
If ATL had lotsa slots to throw away, then it would be feasible to turn an A320 in, say, 60 min without delay (fingers crossed); but if indeed ATL was slot-constrained, then that turn time could be longer for the reasons mentioned above.
This could restrict small planes at LHR for the very same reason, you won't be able to turn a Metro every 20min with the passengers, services, big airliners and ATCs. Just ask yourself if even the fuel trucks would be able to deliver, what about tarmac buses, baggage spots, etc...The fewer the slots, the longer the allowable turnaround time. By inversion, the more the slots, the shorter the allowable turnaround time.
I see what you're saying Archer, but isn't that already modeled here explicitly?
Since we model slots here already, the affect of a full airport on departures is already in the game. As slots get rarer the odds of one being right when your plane is normally ready becomes more rare. It is quite often when flying to a busy slot-constrained airport that I cannot depart when I want and must instead increase my turnaround. Decreasing in those cases is also a possibility, but only at the risk of flight delay or cancellations, so increasing the turnaround time to the nearest available slot is usually the only option.
Very nice and interesting idea, Archer.
However, problems would come for the airlines who have started at big airports; as the airport get more and more congested, the required turn- around time for all their flights would be increased. This would mean that they either get more delays, or have to manually adjust all their routes, which again could be a daunting task if they have hundreds or thousands of routes.
Edit: added reference
Quote from: peterjans on August 02, 2009, 07:42:58 PMHi,
I would suggest to reduce the minimum ground time for a B757-200 from 110 minutes to
50 minutes. We see this aircraft type being used on different type of flights. On any
intercontinental flight I would agree with a MGT of 110 minutes, but for domestic
and flights within the continent many airlines will apply a MGT of approx. 50 mins.
I can not imagine BA, AY, IB used to have a 110 min MGT on their European flights.
Hope you'll be able to to update this even though the new games have already started.
Turkish Airlines for example is know for its last minute switching of aircraft types, we see many types flying in at Schiphol, from the A319 to the A340 (don't know if the even had used their triple seven to AMS). During these flights, I noticed the A340 has the same turnaround time as a A32x/737NG, around 50-60 minutes. In AWS it is impossible to implement TAT like that for an wide body aircraft. Also the many A300s which were used by Turkish charter companies had also a TAT of 50-60 minutes. Hope to see an update for the newer games.
I bet, if TK operated the A380, they would even use it on several domestic flights like IST-BJV due to the huge demand, instead of the regular 737/A32x. Would be unrealistic for the airline if the A380 required more than double of TAT.
Quote from: CX717 on August 03, 2009, 03:12:00 PM
Delta and Northwest fly 757 between US and Europe.
Continental did so as well, I think United (aka Continited) continues that service...
Jona L.
Quote from: Jona L. on April 06, 2011, 08:21:55 AM
Continental did so as well, I think United (aka Continited) continues that service...
Jona L.
They still do with 752s
If shorter turnaround times ever gets to be a reality, i think it should only be on the smaller airports and not able at Heathrow or Frankfurt, Beijing etc. Also it should the flights should be shorter than ???nm.
It is nice to see another feature suggestion thread opened by me being brought back to front.
times flies~~~~~~~~~ ;D
maybe that also means some old problems are still here ;) not a good thing but hope this will be improved soon......
I just had another idea : tie turnarounds to available staff. If you hire more ground staff, all your airplanes can turn quicker.
Quote from: exchlbg on September 29, 2012, 07:36:24 PM
I just had another idea : tie turnarounds to available staff. If you hire more ground staff, all your airplanes can turn quicker.
Biggest problem is not the staff, but the passengers.... we can get 265PAX (B753) through the gate in 9 minutes (with 3 people and 3 gate scanners) problem: they all get stuck in front of the door. Even with 2 doors to be used for boarding it will take at least 20 minutes (rather 30) because passengers stand in the aisle and stow their belongings in the overhead bins, and thereby block the way for the others --> takes more time.
To be noted: Boarding by sections (e.g. rows 18-32 first, 1-18 later, on B738) doesn't help at all, unless ALL passengers understand and follow that request. Otherwise you have people standing near the gate, blocking the way for the others and thus slow down the whole process.
Unless we can some day live in a perfect world, where people with an IQ of room temperature (°C) or below are denied access to airports and everyone else complies with the rules and requests of airlines/ground staff, boarding will always be pain in the ass.
The term "self on- and offloading cargo" for passengers is far mistaken. Better would be "automatically delaying payload".
cheers,
Jona L.
It was just a thought of an easy solution to begin with. And in some cases the airline itself is causing delays by understaffing check-ins for example. I just lived through that experience, when a fully booked 738 was handled by just one person. We left 30 minutes behind schedule, obviously because check-in was not finished on departure time.
I know that there are more reasons aircrafts can turn quicker like small airfields, no big luggage or freight, maybe no fuelling, just smart businessmen as passengers, less catering and so on, but that would be much harder to code.
The best thing would be an option to choose ground handling services from different companies, like with fuel contracts. The more expensive ground handling service, the faster they turn around. In reality, a B737-800 can be turned around in 20 minutes with minimal delays.
In real life, Qantas can turn around a 275~ seater A330 in just an hour without delay. Would be good to see this in the game.
Quote from: Samipls search for 'variable turnaround time' thread, this will be covered there. (= general renewal instead of tweaking minutes off "this and that plane")
I was trawling through older threads to see when the last time the issue of 757 turnaround times was bought up. I was directed here from a thread which was 6-7 years old. I imagine that schro and JumboShrimp will be interested seeing as they were in the original threads (apologies for editing the 757 Wikipedia page all those years ago, I did get a slap on the wrist from them).
I appreciate that there wasn't going to be a tit for tat solution to this as stated above (was unable to quote directly). Having recently gone for 757s in GW1 whilst forgetting how bad their turnarounds were, I was wondering if we could revisit this issue to make the 757 playable again (since that post, other factors like "frequency rape" and variable aircraft pricing have helped to make it less attractive). Only asking as it doesn't look like a long term turnaround time overhaul is in the near future.
I believe there has been enough supporting evidence thrown around in the past but I'll add my own contribution from the airline I work for.
Our minimum turnaround time on the 757-200 is 50 minutes. They may often be scheduled higher, say 60 minutes or even more for transatlantic, but in case of delays or such then this is the required time to prepare the aircrfat for the next sector (as we know sometimes this figure can be beaten). This is coming from a company which is very conservative in their operations, 737-300 and 737-800 minimum turnaround times are 40 and 45 minutes respectively. This is when we all know that 25-30 minutes are achievable in these aircraft types (although my company figures reflect the game more closely).
I appreciate that there is a balance to strike between long haul and short haul on this aircraft, but others have made comparisons to turnaround times on A350 and B787 aircraft and I believe that the 757 should sit closer to the B737MAX and A321NEO turnaround times. Especially when you consider that it was conceived as a 727 replacement thus short to mid haul, I believe that the long haul was a mid life development from the US carriers when they opened up more point to point transatlantic routes.
TLDR: please put 757 minimum turnaround to 50 minutes... or failing that 60 minutes.....
Delta routinely schedules turns here in the US the same as their MD80/90s, A32x and 737NG planes. In GW1, it's a royal PITA to go from the 727 to the 757 (even though the 757 was the intended replacement for the 727), even though the 727 schedules will transfer just fine to any other narrow body. Since the 757 is a large plane and is too small to do long haul (i.e. act like an extra large plane), then it should have a turn time that's consistent with other large planes....
I think what alex is saying is to allow for "unpenalized" shorter turn times on domestic travel while leaving it be on International or LH International. This is a great idea, personally.
In fact, all aircraft should have this option for shorter "unpenalized" turn times the shorter the flight is and or the smaller the destination airport past savings on taxi time.
For example. ATL-CAE routinely flown with 717 irl is naturally bound to have a shorter turn time than the same flown to MDW or FLL. Add in variable cruise speed and we can really make the best use out of aircraft.
Agree, turn around time for the 757 is way off compared to real life. In the game you need to put it at 1:50 for delay possibility to come down to 4.4% !!
That's almost two hours?! The comparable DC8s are at 55 minutes minimum and 1:30 with ~1% delay.
Quote from: Zobelle on May 26, 2018, 12:31:09 AM
I think what alex is saying is to allow for "unpenalized" shorter turn times on domestic travel while leaving it be on International or LH International. This is a great idea, personally.
In fact, all aircraft should have this option for shorter "unpenalized" turn times the shorter the flight is and or the smaller the destination airport past savings on taxi time.
For example. ATL-CAE routinely flown with 717 irl is naturally bound to have a shorter turn time than the same flown to MDW or FLL. Add in variable cruise speed and we can really make the best use out of aircraft.
I tend to disgree. This is already taken in account in taxi time. WAW-BVA is 6NM longer than WAW-CDG, but it's still 10 minutes shorter in F28. Maybe differences are not high enough, but there is already a mechanism to make the difference between a traffick 10 airport and a traffick 5 airport.