One airline just BK'd and with the increased money you get by not joining on day 1 he now has 4 x MD80's and 84 slots within 5 minutes of restarting !!!
So next game you'd be far better off joining at 00:01 on day 2 ! It has taken other airlines since the start of the game to achieve what this guy has in minutes.
Yeah, there really should be a trigger to enable the system for late starters not on day 2 but after 18 or 24 month. I hope sami sees this and changes it for the running games and the future.
I'm not in the game world not sure how much this would cost, but do you think the guy has any cash reserves left? Also, I would argue that starting the game world on day 2 should provide significantly more cash than day 1 because the mere act of basing at an airport on day 1 deters competition. For example, if 5 players based at JFK on day 1, then player #1 based at JFK with default money knowing with zero competition, player #2 knew they were getting default money and decided to open up on top of them with only one competitor, etc.
It only makes sense to be player #6 in the airport if there is financial incentive, which there now is, and therefore you incentive competition. Odds are that if a player is offered the default startup capital then there would never be a player #6 as they would seek out less competitive airports. It might sound counter-intuitive, but when you look at it as a business decision with tradeoffs then IMO it becomes justified that player #6 starting on day 2 gets more money to create competition in an already crowded airport.
That does not make sense.
It encourages players to restart soon, taking advantage with "free money" over people who already played for a bit. Crowded airports also already have enough competition, too much to be accurate.
There is no sense to start on day 1 when you could join on day 4 (real time) and be on top with the _best_ players, far above the huge mass that is average or below average.
Quote from: CUR$E on May 25, 2014, 04:59:06 PM
Crowded airports also already have enough competition, too much to be accurate.
This is the crux of why it doesn't make sense to you--there is no such thing as enough or too much competition.
Especially since it takes a few game days (sometimes weeks) to start making a profit off of your new flights. Now these new airlines starting up have a higher CV instantly when restarting and there are still hundreds (if not thousands) of aircraft on the used market. I understand trying to make things easier on the newer guys but this is hurting the people that start from the beginning.
What "free money"? I'm not in the GW but I am pretty sure you don't get 2X or 3X the of day 1 starting money on day 2 or day 3. Look at the manual.
[medium, effective immediately] * Starting capital for new airlines is now more dynamic.
It already previously has been tied to the inflation and also to the game progress. Meaning that the starting capital has increased over time and the later you join, the more money you get proportionally.
This calculation has been now changed further to support new players. The effect of game's progress vs. start money is higher than before, and it takes also now into account the size of airport you choose as your HQ airport.
Practical example: in 1952 in Game World #4 the start up money was $1 200 000. In 1972 the player joining would have $1 970 000 due inflation and game progress (old calculation). With this change however the player will get this money if he joins at the smallest possible airport (size class 1). If he picks a larger airport the sum is higher, in this case in class 5 airport it would be $5 000 000. Or if he joins in year 2000 (= 50 years into the game) and picks a class 5 airport the starting money is $31 000 000 (without this change it would have been about $11mil).
This additional calculation is fully active after 180 days into a new game world (rises gradually).
https://www.airwaysim.com/forum/index.php/topic,26356.msg308666.html#new
Quote from: Steve on May 25, 2014, 05:26:15 PM
This calculation has been now changed further to support new players. The effect of game's progress vs. start money is higher than before, and it takes also now into account the size of airport you choose as your HQ airport.
I think the situation at hand is the size of airport. Going back to my JFK example, if you are player #6 you'll get a bigger boost than if you are player #3. Crowded airports = more money.
This would lead to a constant cycle of restarts because player 3 will be player 7, player 4 will be player 8, etc. etc. etc.
Again: What you said doesn't make sense.
And of course there is "too much" competition: An airport has a limited amount of capacity and when someone is forced to BK he should not get a second, third, fourth or whatever chance to be better now - with an endless supply of free money.
@ Steve
I have confirmation from sami via PM it is effective as soon as the clock ticks. And I don't know the exact amount of money, but it's plentiful - two ingame weeks after start a restarted airline had the same amount of airline value I had and was instantly able to order 3x DC-10-30, get 12x EGLL Slots and 8x KATL Slots plus the 20x KLAX slots. That was even more I was able to spend with my starting cash PLUS the profit I made in two weeks... and it was plenty profit.
All that will do is have people join day 2 at 00:01 and gain an advantage over someone that opened literally 2 game minutes previously. It's just daft !
I don't mind assisting new airlines, but right now every airline in GW3 is new...even the ones that started day 1 relatively speaking.
Such assistance should not kick in for maybe 12 months, at which time I'd agree airlines are a little more established.
Quote from: CUR$E on May 25, 2014, 05:36:46 PM
This would lead to a constant cycle of restarts because player 3 will be player 7, player 4 will be player 8, etc. etc. etc.
I'm talking about the number of active airlines based at the airport, not number of airlines ever. And yes, it does make sense and no there is no such thing as too much competition. Sure there are constraints, but they create barriers to entry versus encouraging competition. LHR for example suffers from a lack of competition due to the slot situation, which is why the top airlines in profit are always at LHR--lack of competition.
There is no endless supply of free money. I restarted in GW2 after the changes were made and instead of getting $7.5 million I got $21 million when I started at a congested airport (ORD).
Additionally, with the new basing system a player is not required to saturate their HQ before opening a new base, so if player #6 opened up at JFK and only schedules 20 aircraft before moving on to another base, they can do so.
You simply don't get how the current system favors exploiting and gives players starting on day 1 a noticable disadvantage. That's ok.
Fully agree Curse, I cant see one single valid reason above that justifies airlines opened 1 day apart should have any difference in initial finance.
Quote from: SAC on May 25, 2014, 06:08:15 PM
Fully agree Curse, I cant see one single valid reason above that justifies airlines opened 1 day apart should have any difference in initial finance.
The mere act of basing at an airport is the reason why. Let's assume SAC based at JFK. The cost to compete in JFK when there are zero existing competitors is X. Then let's assume Curse wanted to base at JFK. The cost to compete in JFK is something greater than X because he will have 1 (known) competitor. Despite this fact, he decides to base at JFK with X dollars. We can disagree as to how much the additional cash would/should be, but the fact is there is value created when joining early because the mere act of basing at an airport deters competition.
So the question is how much extra cash should they get? I don't know the exact answer, but I can tell you the amount is greater than zero. As far as putting a 12 month delay on increasing the cash, you are essentially giving players who started one day one a 12 month moratorium on new competition. The problem isn't AWS has too much competition, but not enough.
If you invert the problem, how do you create competition when 5 players are already based at an airport? If you give a player X amount of cash, they have the choice of competing against 5 players with X dollars or opening up in an empty airport with X dollars. Most players will take the beaten path and avoid competition versus embracing it (which is why there isn't enough competition in AWS). However, if you offer a player X++ dollars to compete instead, you can start comparing apples to apples and the opportunity cost approaches zero.
Even then, in the end this is a business simulation and business isn't fair. Obviously the rules/structure are in place to make it as even a playing field as possible, but IRL there will always be competitors that have way more resources than you. I started and currently operate an online business with my own capital. I compete against publicly held companies worth billions that had a 20 year headstart on me. Yet, with my thousands of dollars of capital I'm able to compete effectively and profit in spite of these companies with seemingly infinite resources.
IMO there isn't enough incentive for players to start late and compete against existing airlines, which is why gameworlds always end up less than half full. If the goal is to compete and "win" then there should be incentive (more than there is now) to encourage competition whereas if your goal is to simply "win" without competing, what's the point of even playing the game?
Again all you say is fine mid term...day 2, week 2, month 2 is just not needed...the rule is to help new airlines, but I'll say again ALL airlines are new at that point. Many many people will just join day 2 00:01 and gain an advantage over airlines created minutes before....its just plane silly and those that know will just open day 2. It will be exploited and have to be changed.
Quote from: SAC on May 25, 2014, 07:31:41 PM
Many many people will just join day 2 00:01 and gain an advantage over airlines created minutes before....its just plane silly and those that know will just open day 2.
A lot of talk again from everybody without ANY facts or knowledge on how it works I see. On day 1, this new game (y/1995) the start cash was 8 000 000 USD for a class 5 airport. On day 2 it was 8 049 000 USD. So, if you want that extra $49k, go ahead and join a day later. :P
Like announced, the money increases gradually as the game time goes on (both inflation and the game specific money increase function; of course in short term inflation has no effect, but in long term it's very noticeable). It would be of course nonsense to give an immediate big bump on the money after the first 24 hours, even I am not that silly.... (= a smooth and linear increase that is)
(Not very smart to spread these opinions as hard facts.)
50k for just one day is a nice benefit. Is it 50k per day?
How about disabling this feature for the first 12 month or so (like stated in the manual/feature update forums)?
In KLAX somebody restarted, using A320-200. He's bashing the guy with the old MD-80s right now who's around since the gameworld started. Not too far in the future this guy is going to BK. He then probably restarts and pushes the A320-200 guy out of the game. That's just a ridiculous cycle of consumption, more fitting into a WWI or WWII game than in a business simulation. :)
Quote from: CUR$E on May 25, 2014, 07:46:38 PM
50k for just one day is a nice benefit. Is it 50k per day?
No. It is calculated based on the initial cash, game year, game progress etc, and your base size too (most importantly). Of course not any fixed amount, as that would make absolutely no sense either.
Quote from: sami on May 25, 2014, 07:39:32 PM
A lot of talk again from everybody without ANY facts or knowledge on how it works I see.
Be that as it may, the fact remains that any progress for the first weeks/months can be made void by a competitor bankrupting and restarting. Early mistakes are not exactly encouraged by that, but certainly not penalized. Likewise, early success yields no gains if a competitor uses this 'feature'. This is not very motivating.
At least a dampening the effect would be good.
Quote from: Infinity on May 25, 2014, 08:40:40 PM
Be that as it may, the fact remains that any progress for the first weeks/months can be made void by a competitor bankrupting and restarting. Early mistakes are not exactly encouraged by that, but certainly not penalized. Likewise, early success yields no gains if a competitor uses this 'feature'. This is not very motivating.
At least a dampening the effect would be good.
The point of increasing start money later in the game is that you end up with the same purchasing power. Slots on day 1 might cost $500k whereas several years in they will cost you $5 million. There is no inherent advantage gained by starting late as the startup money will still buy the same number of slots, aircraft, etc.
Quote from: LemonButt on May 25, 2014, 08:56:02 PMThere is no inherent advantage gained by starting late as the startup money will still buy the same number of slots, aircraft, etc.
That has already been refuted. If in the beginning you can buy 2 planes and the accompanying sots; but by restarting a few weeks later 4-5 planes and the according slots, that's not an inflation-countermeasure. What you are saying could not be more wrong.
$49.000 per day on a base of $8 Million is an annual inflation rate of 223%.
It is good that startup cash increases, and at a later stage of the game i find it perfectly okay if it exceeds inflation noticeably. But that should not start this early in the game's startup phase.
Quote from: Infinity on May 25, 2014, 09:02:37 PM
but by restarting a few weeks later 4-5 planes and the according slots
Incorrect, as you can easily lease 4 planes with the 8 mil startup capital (but you just can't during the initial 24 hr static day as everyone is limited to 2 on their first day). A reasonable MD-80 series is about 1-1.3mil prepayment, so with 4 planes and 8 mil to start with that totals to about 5mil so you have 3 mil to spare for slots still. (again, slot prices depend on airport, so initial 4 planes doesn't make any sense in the long run if something goes wrong initially, so you'd be cutting it very thin)
So, to summarize. The money starts to increase when the game clock starts. The increase is not immediate nor fixed by any certain amount and not that major like some guys have tried to say (without knowing any better; ie. "day 2 = huge boost" => bs.). The "increase rate" increases gradually (<- sounds stupid but pardon my french) and peaks at about 6 months into the game and after that it increases at a steady rate (= slower increase rate at the beginning of the game). So once again all the talk here has been totally unnecessary since the real 'advantage' (if any) is initially reached only after the game is over 6 months old, or later. But that difference is rather meaningless due to increased slot costs for the late starters and other stuff. = Lot of talk of nothing really.
Quote from: sami on May 25, 2014, 09:12:19 PM
Incorrect, as you can easily lease 4 planes with the 8 mil startup capital
Sorry sami, but that's just not true. We have a few players who have competitors in their airports who restarted after a few days, using exactly the same strategy as our guys. We can see the difference very clearly and it is just the way I have described it.
Well, I just checked 2 minutes ago and a MD-82 with next D check about 7 years into the future costs you ~1.2 million to order (>80%, <8yr). Look it up (used id #6509; single example). But like I said, it's not wise to get 4 of those (I would start with 3 planes with this cash, if I were to fly midsize jets .. or alternatively two large ones, or 4-5 smaller ones). You haven't considered at the possible cash reserves left after all initial actions, which you cannot see naturally yet at this point. If one leases 4 of these midsize jets his cash reserves will be very low, and like I already said, there is very little room for any errors then. (=> not a wise move .. it CAN work, but it's risky)
And to add, of the top 10 largest sized airlines (fleet) 9 have started on day 1 (9-12 planes each). Game is now about 90 days 'old'. (=> absolutely no trend here.)
Quote from: sami on May 25, 2014, 07:39:32 PM
A lot of talk again from everybody without ANY facts or knowledge on how it works I see. On day 1, this new game (y/1995) the start cash was 8 000 000 USD for a class 5 airport. On day 2 it was 8 049 000 USD. So, if you want that extra $49k, go ahead and join a day later. :P
Like announced, the money increases gradually as the game time goes on (both inflation and the game specific money increase function; of course in short term inflation has no effect, but in long term it's very noticeable). It would be of course nonsense to give an immediate big bump on the money after the first 24 hours, even I am not that silly.... (= a smooth and linear increase that is)
(Not very smart to spread these opinions as hard facts.)
At regular start, players received:
$4m initial capita
$4m in money fro loan
That results in 8m cash, but only 4m Airline Value. Initially, the Airline Value = Shareholder Equity = initial capital.
Fast forward just 100 days, to today. Airline starting today starts with $9m initial capital, vs. $4m on day 1. That's extra $5m
Now let's compare this free $5m that the new airlines get, how it compares to what older airlines made:
400 out of 500 airlines who have played for 5 months did not manage to earn $5m. So BK and restart gets right to top 20% airlines, jumps ahead of 80% of airlines that have played for moths. Is it fair? I don't think so.
I am not saying there should not be some increase, but I think more appropriate increase would be maybe $10,000 per day, not $50,000 per day. So after 100 days, new player would get an extra $1m, instead of extra $5m.
Quote from: JumboShrimp on May 26, 2014, 04:03:36 AM
400 out of 500 airlines who have played for 5 months did not manage to earn $5m. So BK and restart gets right to top 20% airlines, jumps ahead of 80% of airlines that have played for moths. Is it fair? I don't think so.
What's that based on? They haven't got their CV to increase above 9 million? Or have you looked at revenue?
I just tested, by joining & quitting GW#3. I'd rather have the 3 months extra growth in fleet size, RI, etc than the extra 5.5 million in startup cash. Sure, my CV won't have grown at all, it'll almost certainly be negative. But starting with an extra 5.5 million, my CV will be negative inside 2 gameweeks, too. 4 months in at big airport, I'd expect about a dozen planes, plus maybe a couple more ordered, decent chunk of slots, solidly profitable but no cash on hand. Start now and play for 2 gameweeks, so also 4 months in, and I'd expect 6-8 planes + their slots, but no RI, less profit, and also no cash on hand.
So, if you're a 'good' player, probably better off starting on day 1, though there's now more of a safety net for you, you can screw up, start over, have a clearer picture of what the competition is like, and not be as far behind as you otherwise would. If you're only an 'intermediate' player or a beginner, it's going to be easier to learn from your mistakes and start over in what is now a tougher market. If you're the sort of player who wants to BK all competitors, it's going to be tougher to simply squash anybody new who shows up in your airport.
Looks reasonable to me. It's possible it needs some balancing, my gut reaction is 5.5 million in ~100 game days is a little high, but hardly seems like a catastrophe. And as I said, I'd expect to be in a better position with 100 days of growth than I would be with 5.5 million extra cash.
That's simply too much.
Quote from: Sanabas on May 26, 2014, 05:35:12 AM
What's that based on? They haven't got their CV to increase above 9 million? Or have you looked at revenue?
I just tested, by joining & quitting GW#3. I'd rather have the 3 months extra growth in fleet size, RI, etc than the extra 5.5 million in startup cash. Sure, my CV won't have grown at all, it'll almost certainly be negative. But starting with an extra 5.5 million, my CV will be negative inside 2 gameweeks, too. 4 months in at big airport, I'd expect about a dozen planes, plus maybe a couple more ordered, decent chunk of slots, solidly profitable but no cash on hand. Start now and play for 2 gameweeks, so also 4 months in, and I'd expect 6-8 planes + their slots, but no RI, less profit, and also no cash on hand.
So, if you're a 'good' player, probably better off starting on day 1, though there's now more of a safety net for you, you can screw up, start over, have a clearer picture of what the competition is like, and not be as far behind as you otherwise would. If you're only an 'intermediate' player or a beginner, it's going to be easier to learn from your mistakes and start over in what is now a tougher market. If you're the sort of player who wants to BK all competitors, it's going to be tougher to simply squash anybody new who shows up in your airport.
Looks reasonable to me. It's possible it needs some balancing, my gut reaction is 5.5 million in ~100 game days is a little high, but hardly seems like a catastrophe. And as I said, I'd expect to be in a better position with 100 days of growth than I would be with 5.5 million extra cash.
Wait, the extra "free" money is now $9.4m according to the screen shot, up to $13.4m. Quitting and restarting gets you right to the top 50 players of 500 players, jumping over 450 players who are sticking with their game. I think that is highly unfair.
I am not a total idiot as far as this game is concerned. But I started at poor part of the world, at airport below top 40 airports. All I managed to accumulate, by playing better than average player was $7.6m. So all I managed to "earn" was $3.6m. Giving players free $9.4m, 3x of what a good player can earn is simply too much. The only thing that is not counted in my Airline Value is accumulated marketing expenses, which in my case was $0.5m.
Another comparison: I started on hour 23 of the first day. There were 3 A320s on UM, all overpriced. Restarting today, there are 3
pages of A320s on UM, some inexpensive, a lot fairly priced.
Would I e better off restarting rather than continuing fairly well played game, played for 5+ game months? Absolutely.
I can the need of some extra starting capital starting at Year 2, Year 3, when the Used Market is empty. But this early, this much is IMO just unfair.
Quote from: JumboShrimp on May 26, 2014, 11:52:58 AM
Wait, the extra "free" money is now $9.4m according to the screen shot, up to $13.4m. Quitting and restarting gets you right to the top 50 players of 500 players, jumping over 450 players who are sticking with their game. I think that is highly unfair.
Extra money is 5.4, not 9.4. As you said day 1 was 8 mill cash, 4 of it loaned, and it's now 13.4 mill, 4 of it loaned.
QuoteI am not a total idiot as far as this game is concerned. But I started at poor part of the world, at airport below top 40 airports. All I managed to accumulate, by playing better than average player was $7.6m. So all I managed to "earn" was $3.6m. Giving players free $9.4m, 3x of what a good player can earn is simply too much. The only thing that is not counted in my Airline Value is accumulated marketing expenses, which in my case was $0.5m.
So 50% more than you've earned (5.4 vs 3.6), not 3 times. And not sure that a smaller airport would get you that much now, as Sami said airport size makes a difference. I didn't check anywhere else.
I'm still not sure of your accounting, what that 7.6 mill represents. Is that your current value, or your taxable profit, or is it that in the first 3 months, your money spent on slots & leases is 11.6 mill, after having 8 mill to start?
I think that's the relevant number to look at, money spent on slots & leases. If I start right now, I spend ~13 mill on slots & leases in the first game month, have no cash & 4 mill in loans, and go from there. 4-5 months in, how much have you spent on slots & leases, and how much cash on hand vs loans?
My guess is that your airline in 24 RL hours will be in a better situation than I'd be in 24 RL hours if I started right now, even with that 5 million extra startup cash. Both in terms of volume of slots/planes, and with an established RI meaning better profitability over the next few months.
Quote from: Sanabas on May 26, 2014, 12:15:40 PM
Extra money is 5.4, not 9.4. As you said day 1 was 8 mill cash, 4 of it loaned, and it's now 13.4 mill, 4 of it loaned.
ok.
Quote from: Sanabas on May 26, 2014, 12:15:40 PM
I'm still not sure of your accounting, what that 7.6 mill represents. Is that your current value, or your taxable profit, or is it that in the first 3 months, your money spent on slots & leases is 11.6 mill, after having 8 mill to start?
It represents initial capital and all accumulated profits. My initial capital was $4m, accumulated profits $3.6m
The new accounting system is really good. This number is inclusive of any money spent on slots or aircraft lease deposits. So the $3.6m is what I earned, and I am comparing it to $5.4m that is given free now.
Quote from: Sanabas on May 26, 2014, 12:15:40 PM
I think that's the relevant number to look at, money spent on slots & leases. If I start right now, I spend ~13 mill on slots & leases in the first game month, have no cash & 4 mill in loans, and go from there. 4-5 months in, how much have you spent on slots & leases, and how much cash on hand vs loans?
As I said, slot costs are included in the Airline Value
Quote from: Sanabas on May 26, 2014, 12:15:40 PM
My guess is that your airline in 24 RL hours will be in a better situation than I'd be in 24 RL hours if I started right now, even with that 5 million extra startup cash. Both in terms of volume of slots/planes, and with an established RI meaning better profitability over the next few months.
I would argue otherwise, but the concept needs to be examined. Is it fair for a newly started airline be on equal footing with airlines that have been in the game for a period of time and had to earn everything? I would argue not. I would argue that newly founded airline needs a good shot at surviving, especially when UM is empty, but not be at equal footing with an average existing airline.
But it is even worse. Newly started airline is not at equal footing with average existing airline. It jumps to top 20% of airlines, it jumps ahead of 80% of existing airlines.
Quote from: Sanabas on May 26, 2014, 05:35:12 AMIt's possible it needs some balancing, my gut reaction is 5.5 million in ~100 game days is a little high
Touche!
oh... now I understand why so many players are BKing and then reopening in the same place with the same name.
Perhaps could be a good solution to block the availability of the same airport once BKpped, dunno, for 1 real week?