AirwaySim

General forums => General forum => Topic started by: CitationX on April 30, 2014, 06:54:58 PM

Title: Aircraft production slot question
Post by: CitationX on April 30, 2014, 06:54:58 PM
I am trying to understand aircraft ordering tendencies better. If there are 2000, 737-100/200 models on backlog and they release a new B737-300 do i need to be a the backlog in order to get it because it almost looks like it produced on the same production line. Do I would therefore be order 2001, If i order 1 plane. I read the manual, but couldn't figure it out.
Title: Re: Aircraft production slot question
Post by: Curse on April 30, 2014, 07:17:12 PM
737-300 has the same production line as 737-400 and 737-500 ("737 classic"), while 737-100, 737-200 and 737-200Adv are a different group ("737 1st gen").
Title: Re: Aircraft production slot question
Post by: CitationX on April 30, 2014, 08:25:29 PM
thanks Cur$e...Also how do i know when an airline might be going bankrupt or be shut down by the bank?
Title: Re: Aircraft production slot question
Post by: Curse on April 30, 2014, 09:35:06 PM
When it's losing money or the player has not logged into the game for 14 days.
Title: Re: Aircraft production slot question
Post by: LemonButt on April 30, 2014, 09:46:51 PM
The simple way is to look at company image, which is usually negative before an airline BKs.
Title: Re: Aircraft production slot question
Post by: CitationX on April 30, 2014, 10:20:10 PM
I see an airline with a -98 image...I would have to image they have to be BK soon
Title: Re: Aircraft production slot question
Post by: Curse on April 30, 2014, 10:38:08 PM
Minus CI is usually due to missed ramp checks. With enough money and owned aircraft you can (in theory) recover from that.
Title: Re: Aircraft production slot question
Post by: CitationX on April 30, 2014, 10:43:57 PM
It looks like he has a -$36M value and is loosing about $1M-$2M per quarter
Title: Re: Aircraft production slot question
Post by: Curse on April 30, 2014, 10:54:26 PM
Sounds like toast.
Title: Re: Aircraft production slot question
Post by: CitationX on May 01, 2014, 01:43:52 PM
This morning I came out to check my airline out and I see I have had at least 8 flights cancelled for the last 3 weeks because of weather and my company image dropped. What can I do to fight this problem and restore my company image.
Title: Re: Aircraft production slot question
Post by: Curse on May 01, 2014, 01:45:51 PM
Longer turnaround times during and between flights and higher marketing investment.
Title: Re: Aircraft production slot question
Post by: CitationX on May 01, 2014, 03:21:54 PM
That airline that I was talking about yesterday finally went BK....how long does it take for their planes to show up on the used market?
Title: Re: Aircraft production slot question
Post by: Curse on May 01, 2014, 04:11:21 PM
Nobody knows.
Title: Re: Aircraft production slot question
Post by: CitationX on May 01, 2014, 07:34:08 PM
Quote from: CUR$E on May 01, 2014, 01:45:51 PM
Longer turnaround times during and between flights and higher marketing investment.

I have a 2 hour turnaround for a 25min aircraft, but I am still getting cancellations due to weather. Its getting crazy...I had 14 weather cancellations this past week.
Title: Re: Aircraft production slot question
Post by: Kadachiman on May 01, 2014, 08:06:07 PM
There is nothing you can do about weather cancellations, you just have to accept it.
Turn-around time is not a relevant factor with weather cancellations.

In fact using that kind of turn-around time to avoid weather cancellations may B/K you as you are not generating income by flying the paint of the airframe....a plane costs money on the ground and only has a chance at making money in the air.
- Unless grounded for a strategic reason e.g. to avoid 4th fleet type costs during replacements, etc

I had 137 flight cancellations due to weather in the last 7 days

PS - BTW you are heading for B/K with 8 airframes and 3 fleet types, let alone when that 4th fleet type arrives
Title: Re: Aircraft production slot question
Post by: LemonButt on May 01, 2014, 08:18:00 PM
Quote from: CitationX on May 01, 2014, 07:34:08 PM
I have a 2 hour turnaround for a 25min aircraft, but I am still getting cancellations due to weather. Its getting crazy...I had 14 weather cancellations this past week.

You will get bad cancellations in streaks due to weather.  You might go 4 straight weeks with just terrible weather cancellations and then 4 years without them.  Also on turnarounds, you'll see ~1% delay, but no matter what you do there is always a chance of delay, even with a 2 hour turnaround.  Delays and cancellations are just part of the the airline business.

Based on your previous comments about condition/delays/etc it sounds like you are striving for perfection.  You don't have to be perfect, just good enough.  You will never have a fleet of 100% condition aircraft or 0% delays or 0min cancellation etc.  As long as your using best practices though (~1% delay turnarounds, auto maintenance, etc) then you shouldn't have any issues being "good enough".
Title: Re: Aircraft production slot question
Post by: Kadachiman on May 01, 2014, 08:31:01 PM
I agree with LemonButt, you appear to be micromanaging your airline which can be a killer in this game.
Its  hard not to get too involved when being a newbie in the game as the game has so much depth as it is a very good sim.
However wishing things and /or wanting things to happen sooner can lead to impatience, impatience leads to making incorrect decisions and that leads to restarts.

I am not saying this to be a smat-arse but your time would be better spent in reading many many threads on here rather than micromanaging your start-up airline, as in the long run you will save a HEAP OF TIME and save yourself a lot of frustration
Title: Re: Aircraft production slot question
Post by: CitationX on May 01, 2014, 08:32:16 PM
Quote from: Kadachiman on May 01, 2014, 08:06:07 PM
There is nothing you can do about weather cancellations, you just have to accept it.
Turn-around time is not a relevant factor with weather cancellations.

In fact using that kind of turn-around time to avoid weather cancellations may B/K you as you are not generating income by flying the paint of the airframe....a plane costs money on the ground and only has a chance at making money in the air.
- Unless grounded for a strategic reason e.g. to avoid 4th fleet type costs during replacements, etc

I had 137 flight cancellations due to weather in the last 7 days

PS - BTW you are heading for B/K with 8 airframes and 3 fleet types, let alone when that 4th fleet type arrives

Those planes on order are going to replace my YS-11 so i can move them to cover my 2 smaller aircrafts, which will bring me back down to 2 fleet types. I got a little out of hand on the different fleet types and the 2 smaller aircraft types are on very short term leases.
Title: Re: Aircraft production slot question
Post by: Kadachiman on May 01, 2014, 08:36:59 PM
No worries mate, try to stay at at 2 fleet types which gives you 1 fleet type up your sleeve to make the changeovers, as the 4th fleet penalty is a game killer.

I found this out hard in this game as I made a HUGE mistake and as a result have had 30-40+ brand new aircraft parked up on leases for most of this Gameworld as I went to 4 fleet types and very quickly decided that to park up the 4th, 5th and 6th fleets was cheaper than flying them....but it still cost me a bucket load of money and created a flow on effect whereas I was restricted in buying new aircraft later.
Title: Re: Aircraft production slot question
Post by: CitationX on May 01, 2014, 08:40:09 PM
Do you typically have to stay in that range the whole game. It seems people with big airlines have multiple fleet types just as real world airlines have. Just wondering as I grow, how do you stay within 2 or 3 aircraft types the whole game?
Title: Re: Aircraft production slot question
Post by: Kadachiman on May 01, 2014, 08:45:10 PM
I think I have 7 fleet types but out of that I only fly 3.
The rest are either parked up costing / wasting me money or leased out.

You will find that most airlines try to stay at 3 fleet types and may go to 4 or 5 fleets briefly during rescheduling e.g. from props to jets.
The bigger the airline the bigger the 4th fleet communality fee (penalty)
e.g. my fleet communality went from 3.5M to 9.5M when I added the 4th fleet......which is why I grounded them

QANTAS the Aussie icon is under a lot of financial pressure at present and one of the main reasons they give - they have too many fleet types

PS - I just sold my first delivered 737-200Adv which I desperately want to fly to get rid of fuel guzzlers, but the next airframe is due in 6 months so it wasn't worth putting it in the air and having the 4th fleet penalty for 6 months while I wait for the rest to start to arrive on a regular basis.
Title: Re: Aircraft production slot question
Post by: CitationX on May 01, 2014, 08:51:56 PM
How can I find out how much fleet communality is costing me as I did not see it on my income statement.
Title: Re: Aircraft production slot question
Post by: Kadachiman on May 01, 2014, 08:55:26 PM
Top of the page
select - Aircraft
scroll down and select - Fleet Comminality
Title: Re: Aircraft production slot question
Post by: CitationX on May 01, 2014, 09:07:05 PM
got it!...Thx I looked at that page before, but never really analyzed it. I am interested to see the cost savings once I switch back to 2 fleet types.
Title: Re: Aircraft production slot question
Post by: Aoitsuki on May 02, 2014, 01:38:29 AM
only a selected few airline chosen by god(kidding) have the luxury of running multiple fleet. But the general rule of thumb as mentioned in pm is it is not economical to run it due to the multiplier placed in fleet commonality. And most airline will rotate old aircraft and try to keep it within the 3 fleet range.
Title: Re: Aircraft production slot question
Post by: Longbow on May 02, 2014, 07:27:33 AM
I've switched from 3 to 1 (bac, so 75 and 100 seaters) anf all my costs are lowered by about an half...
Title: Re: Aircraft production slot question
Post by: Curse on May 02, 2014, 07:37:41 AM
There is no penalty commonality cost between 1 and 3, so what you saved is just the normal commonality a particular fleetgroup creates.
Title: Re: Aircraft production slot question
Post by: Longbow on May 02, 2014, 08:55:46 AM
 ...and for a newbie it's a long shot ;)
Title: Re: Aircraft production slot question
Post by: Sanabas on May 02, 2014, 11:12:40 AM
Quote from: CUR$E on May 02, 2014, 07:37:41 AM
There is no penalty commonality cost between 1 and 3, so what you saved is just the normal commonality a particular fleetgroup creates.

There is a penalty between 1 & 3, the cost is roughly doubled for each fleet. If a fleet of 20 737s costs you 1 million/month as your only planes, it will cost you about ~2 million/month for just the 20 737s if you also have 2 other fleets. It's quite easy for anybody to verify this just by clearing some schedules.

The big difference between 3 & 4 fleets is the penalty remains a fixed % at 3, but the % increases with fleetsize at 4. If you have 3 fleets of 200 planes each, each fleet will still only cost double what it would if they were your only 200 planes. But if you have 4 fleets of 150 planes each, each fleet will cost maybe 6-10 times what it would if they were your only 150 planes. Increase that to 4 groups of 200, and now they cost maybe 8-12 times as much, so the person with 4 x 200 pays 4-6 times as much for the same 600 planes as the person with 3 x 200 does.
Title: Re: Aircraft production slot question
Post by: Curse on May 02, 2014, 05:15:18 PM
@ Sanabas

The part about 1-3 fleetgroups is simply wrong.

2 fleetgroups:
(https://www.airwaysim.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FQfY4MmL.jpg&hash=80e92a245f37a926bd206bf323ab56e3e2401668)

3 fleetgroups:
(https://www.airwaysim.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FD214bjX.jpg&hash=e6e3bb5d4af220c9635728710b4907c6fb7675b9)

Data is from GW#4 right now.



Your part about 4th fleetgroup is of course true, another multi-hit occurs then at 6th or 7th fleetgroup (I'm not going to test this! ;)).
Title: Re: Aircraft production slot question
Post by: CitationX on May 02, 2014, 06:44:42 PM
I ran into 2 questions regarding routes that i wanted to ask everyone:

1. If I have a route to myself and there are only 40 people per day in the demand, but my airplane can hold 64 pax. Should I block some of the seats to make it seem it has a higher LF%?

2. Is it better to compete with 4 companies for 700 pax demand per day or have a route with 70 pax per day demand and be the lone carrier on that route?

Title: Re: Aircraft production slot question
Post by: Curse on May 02, 2014, 06:56:56 PM
1. What gets you money is the amount of pax you transport.
2. Too abstract question for a correct answer.
Title: Re: Aircraft production slot question
Post by: Longbow on May 02, 2014, 10:39:05 PM
Curse has much more experience than me but I saw by myself that a 70 lone route is better than a 700 shared route
Title: Re: Aircraft production slot question
Post by: Kadachiman on May 02, 2014, 10:51:31 PM
As a new airline immediate income is what you need

1. 40 pax demand do not block seats on a 64 seat plane, while high LF looks good it is maximum income per plane that you want...to hell with LF if you are making good profits

2. In your case it is likely better to take the 70 pax route alone rather than the 700 pax route with 4 others
however both will make you money as you will only be suppling 10% of the demand on the 700 pax route so it is highly probable that you will get full planes regardless of CI and RI of you and the 4 others...keeping in mind that strategically it is often good to get your RI on a big pax demand route higher by using a small aircraft ready to put a bigger aircraft on it later ..... So either the 70 or 700 pax route will be good result for you..do both
Title: Re: Aircraft production slot question
Post by: Curse on May 02, 2014, 11:01:56 PM
If the 4 companies serve just 300 demand (a BAC 200 each), the 700 pax route is better. If they offer 4000 seats, then the 70 pax route is better.

That's why I said theoretical questions can't be answered properly. ;)
Title: Re: Aircraft production slot question
Post by: CitationX on May 03, 2014, 03:09:24 AM
The route has 700 pax/day demand and there are currently 4 airlines including me giving a supply of 1400 seats/day.

This is the route that i am concerned about.
Title: Re: Aircraft production slot question
Post by: Sanabas on May 03, 2014, 06:52:49 AM
Quote from: CUR$E on May 02, 2014, 05:15:18 PM
@ Sanabas

The part about 1-3 fleetgroups is simply wrong.

It is not wrong. Showing no change from 2 to 3 proves nothing about the change from 1 to 3. I've documented the jump in previous threads.



QuoteYour part about 4th fleetgroup is of course true, another multi-hit occurs then at 6th or 7th fleetgroup (I'm not going to test this! ;)).

The next jump occurs at 7, but I believe the 6 to 7 jump is like the 1-3 jump, a fixed rate. Not something I've tried to test in detail.