I seem to complain more than my share here, though I really do enjoy the game an awful lot (ask my wife :-\) and I have to give it to Sami on what an awesome job he has done thus far.
That said, the aircraft availability issue is quickly killing the game for me.
The two options available, even in game 3 that is not yet full, are not supplying nearly enough to keep things rolling--even for an airline like mine that is doing well enough to almost always have several million on hand.
The used market, apparently, comes down to hovering over your computer every 3 hours roughly, then making a mad dash to get the aircraft you need.....to say nothing about getting 2 or 3. An example is this morning, I needed 3-4 767's to continue my int'l expansion plans. I see 4 come up, using my iphone. Right then, someone decides to call me. I hit the ignore, with the intent of calling that person back as soon as I had leased my aircraft. But in the 10 seconds in took to get back to the page, all 4 were gone.
So now I have spent the entire day scouring for the aircraft I need, finally getting number 4 just a short time ago. I've lost several weeks waiting, and I've already lost ground in two key markets I had hoped to start up.
In the new market.....well apparently it pays to be based at Hong Kong. One airline has basically tied up the widebody market already. How anyone, this quickly, can afford 50+ widebodies is beyond me....but nevertheless it means that in order to get a new 767, I will have to wait 2 years. In a game that will span less than 15 years. And of course, as I saw in Game 2, it will only get worse.
I understand that scarcity of aircraft if part of the game. It does force you into making certain choices. Do you just grab whatever is available or wait and risk losing ground (as I have)? Some players may enjoy this, but it is getting on my last nerve. This is not how the game should be decided.
Sure, you can be successful in this system. I started a week late with JetWest and grabbed every MD80 I could. I would have gone with the better 737, but only the 20 year old 732 was ever available in any sort of quantity. Even after I had the money, the wait was already 2+ years. The same carried over when I wanted to update those MD80's. The A320 line was locked up again for many years.
And perhaps this is realism at its finest. The problem is, we have less than 15 years to do what we can to succeed. While some may argue that multi-year waits for aircraft to be delivered IS realistic, I think that to some extent we also need to cater, if only ever so slightly to the fact that this is a game. And a very time-limited one at that.
If the new market was left as is, I could live with that.
But the used market is ridiculous.
Even now, because I lost track of the 3 hours that supposedly beckon a influx of new aircraft, I am steadily waiting for the days to change, hoping that I won't miss out on the chance to get the aircraft I need to continue growing. For some, maybe that's fun. For me, it's starting to suck the fun out. Someone said here (swiftus I believe) that this should be a game for the 24/7 folks AND the rest of us who have wives, jobs, and little ones. But at the moment, it's less about my strategy for 'global' domination and more about whether I stay awake long enough to make it to the newest influx of aircraft.
See, the thing is, if I miss it and say "I'll catch it in the morning", then I run the risk of waking up to still no planes. And even if I do, now I have a 3 week wait while they are configured correctly. By the time all is said and done, I will have lost a month or more just trying to get what I need. And in a game of so short a timespan, a month is crucial.
Anyway, I'm sorry for the diatribe, but I really believe this issue needs to readdressed before I can invest any further money into the endeavor. Of course, I'm just one person and it won't matter if I stay or go....but Sami you seem like a very customer-oriented person, so I'm hoping you will consider this issue.
Thanks,
Pike
I agree. I had to take the time to save money, which is somewhat hard when you are using small turboprops, in order to place an order for new jets. The used market had absolutely nothing available.
Hi Pike,
I certainly understand your frustration but heres the thing.
If sami was to increase the amount of aircraft on the used market to the level where everyone is happy we'd have 1000s of aircraft in the used market and even then i don't think that would match the demand.
The result of which i think would cuase everyone to expand rapidly and before you know it the games at the same position again.
Personally i don't think there is a win win situaton for everyone here, i think sami has it just right for the moment it's a case of ordering new and waiting we're all in the same boat.
Good luck
p.s i would'nt say it was a game killer just a challenge :)
Agree with Ban2
I also think part of the problem is how easy and quick it is to expand even with only 1 hub, imagine how bad it'll be with airlines opening multiple hubs.
Yeh i've seen this in other games, 1 in particular is so bad if you're not in from day 1 forget it, becuase the markets are flooded from the start.
Trying to compete with players who have the time to take this game on full time is impossible. My solution to this strategy is to stay away from big hubs as a base, and not expect to be in same league as those who can play 24/7.
I completely agree with you, Pike.
I had sort of resigned myself to things as they, but you have summed up what I've been thinking for quite some time.
Thanks,
JJP
The used ac is not supposed to be the thing what you live and expand on. Vice versa actually. But since the game starts in the middle of nothing there's really no other choice than generate some used planes to get players started. However the ultimate goal would be that players would feed the used market themselves, though a 15-20y play time is not that long for that.
Also the new ac order system needs the update so that for example your order of 50 planes is not delivered 50 in a row, that should help for the biggest issues. Production rate on the other hand is good in my mind.
Quote from: sami on February 02, 2009, 04:18:42 PM
The used ac is not supposed to be the thing what you live and expand on. Vice versa actually. But since the game starts in the middle of nothing there's really no other choice than generate some used planes to get players started. However the ultimate goal would be that players would feed the used market themselves, though a 15-20y play time is not that long for that.
Also the new ac order system needs the update so that for example your order of 50 planes is not delivered 50 in a row, that should help for the biggest issues. Production rate on the other hand is good in my mind.
But Sami, how else can you ever expand when you have to wait 2 years for decent aircraft? And no, 15-20 years is no where near long enough for the player-driven market you describe, I definitely agree there.
I do like that big orders will be spread out, indeed that will help a bit. As for production rate, it's fine for some and way too low for others. The 737 comes to mind.....I saw online not long ago that Boeing puts out about 30 of those per month. That's twice what we find in game. I think if the production rates for mainstay aircraft like that could go up, even a little bit, it would help things.
I can personally live with the used aircraft market, as it reflects the real market rather well.
The new market, however, that is a completely different issue. As some of you may have noticed, the A330-200 was released today. The minute I saw it, I placed an order for 7 frames .... which will be delivered in 5 years of game time! In other words, they'll only be in my possession for 5 game years before this round is over.
To my mind there are two ways around this issue. One is to spread the deliveries out, which I understand Sami is working on. But the biggest improvement would be if production rates were increased dramatically. I do appreciate this may not reflect real life, but then again - we only have a relatively short time before the game is up. However, if you place an order with Boeing or Airbus for B737s or A32x today, they're not going to tell you it'll be 5 years before you see the first one. 2 years maybe, 2.5 at the maximum. Again, this is driven by production rates, and the rates we have in the game does not nearly reflect real life.
A third option would be to increase the lenght of the game, either by extending the actual duration of the game or by shortning the game days to something like 15 minutes, and used the time gained to extend the game years without extending the duration of the game.
Whichever way you choose to look at it, something needs to be done about getting new aircraft onto the market in far higher numbers than what is presently available.
So, there you have it Sami, give the virtual airframe CEO's a kick up the backside and have them up the production sharpish! 2-3 times the present rate should do the trick. Make the production increase proportional, so that every year the rates will increase.
I'm guessing very small percentage of aircraft are owned, later in game say 5 years to go I can't imagine anyone wanting to buy, i don't really see the incentive to buying, it cost less in the long run but also tie down a lot of your capitol when that same amount could be used to lease many more aircraft that will make much more when delivered fueling even larger expansion, I think this is part of the problem, if larger airlines for some reason have to BUY aircraft then it'll mean slower expansion, lesser aircraft ordered and more aircraft to go around.
Very true Echo - if you can't amortise the purchase of new aircraft over 15-20 years, it makes no sense whatsoever buying rather than leasing them.
Quote from: EAT CEO on February 02, 2009, 05:55:44 PM
The new market, however, that is a completely different issue. As some of you may have noticed, the A330-200 was released today. The minute I saw it, I placed an order for 7 frames .... which will be delivered in 5 years of game time! In other words, they'll only be in my possession for 5 game years before this round is over.
That means that the
certification will be given in that time.. Totally different thing than production queue.
Sami,
True, but then again I also placed orders for A340s, and those won't be delivered for another 5 years. Almost the same deal with A320s and A321s - 4 to 5 years mate. Too long if you ask me, considering the relative short timespan this game runs for.
this may be true but this is down to the high volume of orders in such a short space of time.
not a lot sami can do about that, apart from ration our order number which i certainly don't want.
why not order aircraft from a different manufacturer?
i think to increase the production number will only serve to make the big airlines bigger faster.
Quote from: ban2 on February 02, 2009, 10:17:38 PM
this may be true but this is down to the high volume of orders in such a short space of time.
not a lot sami can do about that, apart from ration our order number which i certainly don't want.
why not order aircraft from a different manufacturer?
i think to increase the production number will only serve to make the big airlines bigger faster.
Well the bigger airlines are already dominating the game anyway. In game 3, there is basically one airline, I want say which one this flying carpet is, that has done what I haven't seen anyone do in this short of time.....I mean the guy has over 100 on order. 48 744's, 38 76's, 21 A340's.......the guy has shut out everyone else for the next several years.
And how he is doing it with 6 fleet types is beyond me.
Order from a different manufacturer eh? Which one? One of the Russians perhaps? Because otherwise, Boeing, Airbus, and MD are filled up.....So what is the point?
And Sami, you say the main idea is to build with new airplanes, not with used......so explain to me how I should achieve this? Do I wait 5 years to expand? No, because in five years there won't be any slots at EWR. So what then? Would love to hear that answer.
Anyway, if this is how every game going forward is to be, then I've likely spent my last dime here and will go to one of the alternatives.
I think the monopolization of the new aircraft market does put a major damper on things. I know somewhere there was a posting (search doesn't like me right now it seems) that recommended slots for the monthly production of a manufacturer, with restrictions on how many slots one airline could have. If you do order 60 of an aircraft, the manufacturer won't tell everyone else 'well, you'll need to wait 5 years' to place a new order - they'll string out the large orders over a period of time to best allocate the spots. Hopefully, such an idea could be implemented, so that multiple people could get orders on a monthly basis, rather than having large stretches tied up by one airline.
I am trying other aircraft manufacturers, but realistically, it's hard to get fleet commonality that way - there's lots of used aircraft at times from the 'big' manufacturers, but not enough good offerings from the 'small' manufacturers. I do also like the point about amortizing - if we have to wait so long for the aircraft, paying 40% up front is crazy. There's no easy way to put purchase orders in and tie up that much cash.
this is definitely an issue. IMO, for a quick fix until a better new aircraft system is made, maybe we should have the used market refresh more often or add more popular airplanes in the used market on each rest. IE: offering 3x 737-300 is not gonna do players any good and waiting for 3 years for new order serve no purpose either. Until then, used market will probably be an easy solution for now from coding perspective.
I propose
when a manufacturer release a new type airlines only get 1 chance to place order for that type, once that order is complete the airline can't get anymore unless from used market.
The order would be strung out over a period of maybe several years for very large order also each order would come with an option for additional, say I order 150 737s it'll take boeing 3 years (5 per month with 6 months for 1st delivery) until the last is delivered. I also get an option to continue production for another 150 at same production rate and price. i can convert the options or part there of into orders anytime even after order is complete and pay the extra cost but can't convert orders back into options.
problem I see is, it'll take longer for airlines to get deliveries, while they're waiting their balance will keep growing and would turn to the used market for additional except there's never enough for airlines thats expanding to fuel further expansion, like ban2 said there's no win win situation.
I know, capitalism sux hard.
i think i'm with echo on this one... this is how i would see it working, lets base it on 733 15/month and 4 production lines...
Line 1/ reserved for orders of between 0-5 models - production rate is 1/month
Line 2/ reserved for orders of between 6-20 models - production rate is 2/month
Line 3/ reserved for orders of between 21-75 models - production rate is 5/month
Line 4/ reserved for orders of 76+ production rate is 7/month
with a queue system on each line maybe this could work, and to stop someone ordering from 2 or more production lines at the same time, maybe have it so the manufacturer can accept 1 order per airline in a 6 month period. Not sure how easy it would be to code this but it's an idea. what's your thoughts on resolving this challenge?
p.s i modifyed this post.
Quote from: ban2 on February 03, 2009, 05:24:57 AM
i think i'm with echo on this one... this is how i would see it working, lets base it on 733 15/month
you order 0-5 models - production rate is 1/month
6-20 models - production rate is 2/month
21-75 models - rate is 5/month
76+ 7/month
with a queue system for each tier maybe this could work, and to stop someone ordering from 2 or more queues at the same time maybe have it so the manufacturer can accept 1 order per airline in a 6 month period. Not sure how easy it would be to code this but it's an idea. what's your thoughts on resolving this challenge?
Now I could go for that.
See, I have absolutely no problem with someone being successful and buying new airplanes.....just give EVERYONE a chance. The system above there would help, if its able to be coded.
And I still think the used market could use either more frequent updating, or more aircraft on the update.
not too sure on the 1 order every 6 months maybe too long... maybe 1 order per month would be enough time for everyone interested to get their money saved and orders in??
I found this little gem from boeing.com :)
hey sami can i order half a plane???? :D
Boeing Announces Production Rate Increases
SEATTLE, March 18, 1996 -- Boeing Commercial Airplane Group today announced increases in planned aircraft production rates on three of its models, reflecting the positive market outlook for new airplanes. The new rates will take effect in 1997.
"We're really pleased to see that today's increased orders are leading to increased deliveries tomorrow," said Ron Woodard, president of Boeing Commercial Airplane Group. "This rate increase is especially good news for our employees, suppliers and shareholders because it shows that our customers continue to appreciate the value provided by Boeing airplanes and services."
Production rates will be adjusted as follows: In the first quarter of 1997, the 737 production rate will increase from eight and one-half airplanes per month to 10 airplanes, and the 757 rate will return to a monthly output of four airplanes per month from three airplanes. In the second quarter of 1997, 747 production will increase from three and one-half airplanes per month to four airplanes.
Boeing, the world's No. 1 producer of commercial aircraft, announced last December that the company's monthly production would reach 22.5 airplanes by the fourth quarter of this year. The company also has announced that 1996 deliveries are expected to total approximately 215 airplanes of all types. Today's announcement, when coupled with the previous rate increases, will bring monthly production for all five Boeing models -- including the 767 and 777 -- to 27 airplanes by the second quarter of 1997.
In its recently issued 20-year assessment of worldwide air travel demand and airplane supply requirements, Boeing forecast that air passenger traffic will grow by 5.1 percent a year throughout the world. To meet that growth and replace aging aircraft, the report noted that the world's airlines are expected to add 15,900 airplanes to their fleets, worth more than $1.1 trillion, during that same time period.
I have to agree about the new aircraft situation and 'Flying Rug' airline (as i seen it refered to in one thread). He is going to ruin the game for a lot of people.
The idea of this game is not to be the only airline flying by 2005 (or am i missing the point)!!!!!!!!
Quote from: Pike on February 03, 2009, 05:29:37 AM
See, I have absolutely no problem with someone being successful and buying new airplanes...
Hi,
i guess there is the Problem. Nobody is buying new airplanes. They are just leasing them....i thinks thats the only problem. Nobody would have enough amount of cash to BUY about 30 747´s.
It will also bring up the realism.... show me an real world airline with all of its planes leased.
there must be a reason why in the real world airlines buy rather than lease and i want to know it.
Quote from: Echoco on February 07, 2009, 01:23:38 AM
there must be a reason why in the real world airlines buy rather than lease and i want to know it.
A real world airlines are using their planes for a very long time....so the leasing costs are much higher than buying the plane. I understand that leasing is a necessary @ the beginning there is no other way. But if you have enough to BUY you should do that.
google gave me this
http://www.globalplanesearch.com/aircraft/sales/decision.htm
in this game its been advised not to use planes older than 10yo so its better to lease for 7 years than buy, i think 7 years of leasing is about the same as paying the value of the aircraft but its spread pretty thin