Personally, I am getting tired of reading about this stuff.
Sami is spending way too much time having to program code into this game to prevent a few select individuals from abusing the system.
This is time he could be spending upgrading/adding on to the sim. The need to be the biggest/best/baddest airline has really detracted from the main mission of AWS.
The forums were never awash with pointless inter alliance bickering until just recently. Everyone was here to help others get the most out of what they wanted in the sim. Instead, what is being created is an environment many new players will never truly enjoy. But that's aside from what I am trying to get at.
Many of you may have forgotten that much of what I am saying is in AWS' TOS already.
Here is what I am saying (and I hope many of you freely follow suit)
I, John "swiftus27" Brickel, swear that I will not cheat, use a loophole, or exploit AWS in any way. I further recognize that it is my responsibility to report any player, including those in my alliance, who does. I must also report any exploit/cheat/loophole I discover immediately to AWS management. If I fail to do so, I allow Sami and his designates to punish me up to and including a permanent ban from AWS. This includes being publicly admonished in the AWS forums.
-swiftus27
This is not a thread to discuss past sins or cast any stones either.
Allow me to be the first to follow suit.
I, Don "JetWestInc" Collins, swear that I will not cheat, use a loophole, or exploit AWS in any way. I further recognize that it is my responsibility to report any player, including those in my alliance, who does. I must also report any exploit/cheat/loophole I discover immediately to AWS management. If I fail to do so, I allow Sami and his designates to punish me up to and including a permanent ban from AWS. This includes being publicly admonished in the AWS forums.
Don
+1 from me.
I will also go one step further and say that while I am a managing member of the alliance, any WorldLink player who cheats in any way will be banned from the alliance permanently.
I, Alex/RushmoreAir, swear that I will not cheat, use a loophole, or exploit AWS in any way. I further recognize that it is my responsibility to report any player, including those in my alliance, who does. I must also report any exploit/cheat/loophole I discover immediately to AWS management. If I fail to do so, I allow Sami and his designates to punish me up to and including a permanent ban from AWS. This includes being publicly admonished in the AWS forums.
-RushmoreAir
It is silly what the forums have degraded to . . . I have stopped reading everything but my alliance's forum and the demotivator thread ;D.
But seriously people, enjoy this simulation as it was intended!
I, Minerva, swear that I will not cheat, use a loophole, or exploit AWS in any way. I further recognize that it is my responsibility to report any player, including those in my alliance, who does. I must also report any exploit/cheat/loophole I discover immediately to AWS management. If I fail to do so, I allow Sami and his designates to punish me up to and including a permanent ban from AWS. This includes being publicly admonished in the AWS forums.
I promise to do everything with in my power to win at the game.
The game like the airline business is war.
From BA fighting with Virgin.
Loads of Airlines being fined for fixing air cargo prices.
Sami like the WTO will change the rules to make the game and the airline business fairer.
Cheers
Lost
PS: I am not talking about hacking or anything like that.
Whenever you have competition you will have people that will take every advantage to 'win' including cheating or activities of a dubious nature bordering on cheating, unfortunately that is the nature of some people. This does not matter whether it is an online sim or competing at the Olympics.
There isn't much we can do about it except to report any cheating to the authorities - in this case Sami.
I do not believe that this is the doing of any single 'alliance' as it has to be in the nature of the person to cheat and can not be attributed to a group of people, so to start an alliance war over it is a pointless, and an incorrectly directed exercise.
I chose to join an alliance in the current Jet Age world and the alliance I chose to join is Skyconnect.
I joined an alliance to gain additional information about the game and to chat with like minded people which I am sure is the case in all alliances. To date I can honestly say that I have not witnessed any 'organised group cheating'.
There are many benefits of being in an alliance with the main one to me being knowledge sharing, so if we focus on the positives and let Sami sort out the negatives we may all enjoy the game more.
Regards Darryl
Something original happened while I was gone?
Talentz
Quote from: swiftus27 on October 18, 2011, 11:00:42 PM
Personally, I am getting tired of reading about this stuff.
Sami is spending way too much time having to program code into this game to prevent a few select individuals from abusing the system.
This is time he could be spending upgrading/adding on to the sim. The need to be the biggest/best/baddest airline has really detracted from the main mission of AWS.
The forums were never awash with pointless inter alliance bickering until just recently. Everyone was here to help others get the most out of what they wanted in the sim. Instead, what is being created is an environment many new players will never truly enjoy. But that's aside from what I am trying to get at.
Many of you may have forgotten that much of what I am saying is in AWS' TOS already.
Here is what I am saying (and I hope many of you freely follow suit)
I, John "swiftus27" Brickel, swear that I will not cheat, use a loophole, or exploit AWS in any way. I further recognize that it is my responsibility to report any player, including those in my alliance, who does. I must also report any exploit/cheat/loophole I discover immediately to AWS management. If I fail to do so, I allow Sami and his designates to punish me up to and including a permanent ban from AWS. This includes being publicly admonished in the AWS forums.
-swiftus27
+1 From me as well
Dan
Quote from: LostInBKK on October 19, 2011, 01:53:56 AM
I promise to do everything with in my power to win at the game.
That's my point.
What exactly are "Cheating / Loopholes / Exploits"?
1) There are some very obvious methods that aren't allowed. That include "hacking" like massively changing sourcecode or whatever. It also includes scripts that automatically do many steps (what doesn't work with AirwaySim due to its concept). And it is using bigger bugs (some of them I found and only reported via PM and not via forum to avoid people using them: order cheap aircraft, get an expensive one; one aircraft, two flights at the same time; extend lease and earn money from the leasing company for using their aircraft etc. etc.).
2) Some other things aren't obviously illegal. Like the auto-reloader. We knew it's an advantage but there was never the idea it could be illegal. It was always just one of few small advantages. It hasn't given the ultimate advantage to become an uberairline and - personally my biggest point - it's a common browser technology everybody using the internet knows. Nothing military secret.
Same for the money transfer that was done in MT5 some days ago. The tenor in the forum always was: Alliances are allowed to trade aircraft to gain money.
That's something that was already done when I joined AWS and was part of WorldLink, that was done when I founded -X- and that was done in SkyConnect and I'm sure it was done in other alliances, too.
The difference is - Bob and some others found a way to perfect this transfermethod.
Still 2) And there are things that give advantages, too. But aren't forbidden - and not all of them are easy to find/easy to use by new or unexperienced players;
- The 7-day-schedule. It is clearly not intended by sami people use it, because the game interface doesn't offer the possibility to create it fast. One has to use several steps to do so.
- Excelsheets for calculating efficiency of aircraft; what used aircraft is best; etc.
- Several tools and webpages to perfectly calculate techstop airports
- use Skype and other IM to trade aircraft or give out the used market refreshed
- two screens or more/several instances of AirwaySim running parallel make things much easier
etc. etc. etc.
... ... ...
As said, the first part are obviously cheats and unfair things don't allowed. All other things belong to the second list. Things that are allowed and get forbidden when administration wants so.
There is no big red line and everything above is bad and everything below is good. It's a big grey area and as long as you don't ditch the borders - cheating and playing basic on a library computer with IE6.0 - you can't avoid to find methods you might have used are disallowed sometime or at least discussed.
So no, I'm not signing a text that is totally useless. It's like signing the UN human rights charta that forbids torture of kidnappers what results in people die. Especially when everybody who already signed using methods from the last block that is clearly in the grey area.
Quote
So no, I'm not signing a text that is totally useless. It's like signing the UN human rights charta that forbids torture of kidnappers what results in people die. Especially when everybody who already signed using methods from the last block that is clearly in the grey area.
I think you miss the point, Curse. What is technically allowed and was is not can be discussed and ruled on by Sami with input from the community. The 'text' is about personal ethics and community responsibility. Something the whole world could use a little more of right now.
I'll sign up to this. I have been getting progressively more annoyed when people use the little kinks and oddities in the game engine to get ahead.
I, Dave "Dave4468" Poynton, swear that I will not cheat, use a loophole, or exploit AWS in any way. I further recognize that it is my responsibility to report any player, including those in my alliance, who does. I must also report any exploit/cheat/loophole I discover immediately to AWS management. If I fail to do so, I allow Sami and his designates to punish me up to and including a permanent ban from AWS. This includes being publicly admonished in the AWS forums.
-Dave4468
There is no general rule about ethics. What's good and what's evil? That mostly depends on your own point of view.
That's what I tried to say. While everybody is fine with 7-day-schedules maybe somebody thinks this is unfair - one can see this with all the "wtf are the people doing there?" threads with that as topic.
Due to the fact AWS unites many people - some are politically left, some are right etc. - from many different countries - some are peaceful, some are dictatorship - with lots of different goals in this game - some want a nice and realistic regional airline, others want a global player with thousands of aircraft - there is no general codex of ethics one can use because it is established in the neighbourhood and family.
It's up to sami and the TOS to regulate all these different kind of people.
I wrote a big text about community and how sami is involved or not. Read it. If you read it and still wrote your post, read it again please.
PS: What's about ethic when somebody who opens a thread about it name others as "cancer" to someone else? Isn't this ethically wrong, too? How serious one can take such things when everybody who signed this thing does ethically questionable things?
Quote from: Curse on October 19, 2011, 02:22:00 PM
There is no general rule about ethics. What's good and what's evil? That mostly depends on your own point of view.
The only point of view that matters is sami's point of view.
Since it is clearly not feasible to ask him before you do ANYTHING at all on this site, I'd think that the best solution is to continue playing the game to the best of your ability, following current game rules, and if something that is being done is found to be against sami's point of view, it can be added to the rules. This doesn't mean that you shouldn't apply common sense, like you said in the first part of your original post, but to expect to know exactly what sami is thinking is absolutely ridiculous.
I don't think this thread is the place for an extended debate about ethics. For one thing I didn't start the thread, and I don't want to hijack it. However, if you read my post carefully you will see that I wrote 'personal ethics': I'm fully aware there is no universally shared code of ethical behaviour. The point is that players of AWS ought to consider what they are doing when they exploit the technical mechanics of the game or engage in 'grey area' behaviour (without first inquiring into their appropriateness with Sami or the community) and ask themselves if doing so violates the spirit of the simulation: which is to approximate real world airline management. 'Community responsibility' is about helping Sami police those whose activities that do violate the TOS and rules of the game, which because the game is constantly evolving, also have to evolve.
I would read your (Curse's) post on 'community' if I could find it: searching 'curse' and 'community' turns up rather a lot of hits -- could you give me the link?
I have called curse a cancer on the aws community in the past. His recent actions aren't changing my mind much. Your actions are often divisive and not for the betterment of aws aas a whole.
If you really need to be told what's right and wrong in this sim, perhaps you should ask before you do something.
Many of the recent actions by many members to defend habits that are obviously against the tos sickens me. Seriously, I am shocked how some find it to not be an issue to basically transfer money between ailines by continually selling/buying planes between them.
Honestly, how many times have Sami had to quickly program an item to do away with an unfair practice?
This "win" above all else needs to stop.
@swiftus Stop trolling and play AWS.
(https://www.airwaysim.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fverydemotivational.files.wordpress.com%2F2011%2F09%2Fdemotivational-posters-trolling.jpg&hash=2c39f4d3c36ea35c64ef395c436a13a4dc6d2735)
Lol
Quote from: swiftus27 on October 19, 2011, 03:43:56 PM
I have called curse a cancer on the aws community in the past. His recent actions aren't changing my mind much. Your actions are often divisive and not for the betterment of aws aas a whole.
If you really need to be told what's right and wrong in this sim, perhaps you should ask before you do something.
Many of the recent actions by many members to defend habits that are obviously against the tos sickens me. Seriously, I am shocked how some find it to not be an issue to basically transfer money between ailines by continually selling/buying planes between them.
Honestly, how many times have Sami had to quickly program an item to do away with an unfair practice?
This "win" above all else needs to stop.
I don't understand this. Why should transfering money be against the rules? Airlines in real life do this all the time, with slots. Since we can't sell/trade slots, using planes becomes the preferred alternative since it is
actually legal according to the TOS.
Transfering money from one airline to another is not in any way a way to "win above all else"
If an airline is in serious danger of bankruptcy, and I have been there when I was new, a friend of mine most graciously contributed some money so that I could stay afloat. Should this be against the spirit of the game? No (in my opinion anyway ::)) I was in trouble, and someone was trying to help. Being helpful is definetely part of the community that Curse keeps alluding to.
Clearly, you don't need to be "told what is right and wrong in the sim" - you think that you get to decide it yourself, and nobody else's opinion counts. Curse has given an argument, and even if you don't agree with the premise, it is logical in some form. In contrast, you are just making pretentious statements that are divisive and not for the betterment of AWS as a whole (from some
other people's opinions, not your own ego). Perhaps you should be referred to as a "cancer"?
Quote from: BobTheCactus on October 19, 2011, 04:06:07 PM
I don't understand this. Why should transfering money be against the rules? Airlines in real life do this all the time, with slots. Since we can't sell/trade slots, using planes becomes the preferred alternative since it is actually legal according to the TOS.
Transfering money from one airline to another is not in any way a way to "win above all else"
If an airline is in serious danger of bankruptcy, and I have been there when I was new, a friend of mine most graciously contributed some money so that I could stay afloat. Should this be against the spirit of the game? No (in my opinion anyway ::)) I was in trouble, and someone was trying to help. Being helpful is definetely part of the community that Curse keeps alluding to.
Clearly, you don't need to be "told what is right and wrong in the sim" - you think that you get to decide it yourself, and nobody else's opinion counts. Curse has given an argument, and even if you don't agree with the premise, it is logical in some form. In contrast, you are just making pretentious statements that are divisive and not for the betterment of AWS as a whole (from some other people's opinions, not your own ego). Perhaps you should be referred to as a "cancer"?
http://www.usatoday.com/travel/flights/2010-02-09-jal-delta-american_N.htm (http://www.usatoday.com/travel/flights/2010-02-09-jal-delta-american_N.htm)
Delta offered more than $1 billion in cash and loans.
American and investment firm TPG offered $1.4 billion in cash. After entering bankruptcy, JAL said it didn't want foreign investment.
Also how far do you want to go in what is transferring money between alliance members.
In the last DOTM, there was a time when I was in trouble where I sold some of my owned jets to an alliance mate who then leased them back to me. Is that breaking the rules? I think intra alliance leasing is a very important part of the game and alliances. Another example, when I bankrupted, an alliance member leased me cheaply the planes they had on order for my last airline to help give me a quick start. Same question applies.
I can't see leasing between alliances being scrapped too can it?
Quote from: alexgv1 on October 19, 2011, 04:45:37 PM
I can't see leasing between alliances being scrapped too can it?
There are a number of massively multiplayer games out there go out of their way to combat any "unfair" transfers of resources between players. There are generally limits of how far ahead one player can be vs. another player in transactions betwen them (during a time period).
If something like this was implemented here, leases under or over the "market value" would be contributing to this imbalance. But buy / lease transaction between alliance members, at or near market prices would not create an imbalance. So buy / lease transaction near market prices should be legit even under the strictest rules.
Quote from: BobTheCactus on October 19, 2011, 04:06:07 PM
I don't understand this. Why should transfering money be against the rules? Airlines in real life do this all the time, with slots. Since we can't sell/trade slots, using planes becomes the preferred alternative since it is actually legal according to the TOS.
;) It's a wrong example. It is true AWS can't be compared to the real world, but anyway It is based upon common basic real-world rules.
I never seen company to go in debt balance for another company, it should be right if the company helped is part of its holding, but I think somebody confuse an alliance with an holding.
What should be think the stakeholders of Air France if it gets its money to help Delta because is part of SkyTeam? The anti trust could be think there's a link between two companies.
Then, Curse can talk about how other players are envy, newby, and to live this moral rule that it is close to an anti-trust rule, as a comunist rule.
However, if the meaning of an alliance is to do an holding, it is better to explain that in the guide so other people can treat the allieances as one company and choose the better strategy.
Let me just point something out... Its a game.
Yes , there should be no cheating on it, exploits, etc but some of you are taking it a little to seriously.... It used to be much much more laid back until a couple mths ago. I've seen alot of bashing of other players and their ideas on the forums too and that is one of the reasons why I rarely come on here and havent played in a while. Plue I have school to worry about :'(
I'm not going and bashing people here.... just pointing out that some of us here need to relax and enjoy the game, and report those who violate the rules and not get in a tizzy about it ;D
Quote from: Monk Xion on October 30, 2011, 09:06:57 PM
Let me just point something out... Its a game.
Yes , there should be no cheating on it, exploits, etc but some of you are taking it a little to seriously.... It used to be much much more laid back until a couple mths ago. I've seen alot of bashing of other players and their ideas on the forums too and that is one of the reasons why I rarely come on here and havent played in a while. Plue I have school to worry about :'(
I'm not going and bashing people here.... just pointing out that some of us here need to relax and enjoy the game, and report those who violate the rules and not get in a tizzy about it ;D
+1
Quote from: Monk Xion on October 30, 2011, 09:06:57 PM
Let me just point something out... Its a game.
Yes , there should be no cheating on it, exploits, etc but some of you are taking it a little to seriously.... It used to be much much more laid back until a couple mths ago. I've seen alot of bashing of other players and their ideas on the forums too and that is one of the reasons why I rarely come on here and havent played in a while. Plue I have school to worry about :'(
I'm not going and bashing people here.... just pointing out that some of us here need to relax and enjoy the game, and report those who violate the rules and not get in a tizzy about it ;D
+1 ;D
agreed here aswell.
I, Gavin 'soarinternational' McKay, swear that I will not cheat, use a loophole, or exploit AWS in any way. I further recognize that it is my responsibility to report any player, including those in my alliance, who does. I must also report any exploit/cheat/loophole I discover immediately to AWS management. If I fail to do so, I allow Sami and his designates to punish me up to and including a permanent ban from AWS. This includes being publicly admonished in the AWS forums.