I was wandering around in my income statement looking at some graphs and figures when something suddenly popped into my head: typeratings. In modern times, these can cost up to 35000 EUR per pilot. Subsequently, my question is: how are these modeled now in AirwaySim? Is the pilot assumed to possess TR's already or does it stack up to the pilot training costs?
I think staff training in fleet commonality costs take care of this...
Quote from: LemonButt on May 21, 2011, 06:56:38 PM
I think staff training in fleet commonality costs take care of this...
Shouldn't we have an option to let the pilot pay for his own TR, then (at the cost of pilot morale)? This is being done very often in the real world (FlyBe, Ryanair, EasyJet, etc.) which is a real pain for those who hold their licenses, but a blessing to the companies who employ them.
Quote from: Quinoky on May 21, 2011, 06:59:57 PM
Shouldn't we have an option to let the pilot pay for his own TR, then (at the cost of pilot morale)? This is being done very often in the real world (FlyBe, Ryanair, EasyJet, etc.) which is a real pain for those who hold their licenses, but a blessing to the companies who employ them.
A couple of friends of mine had their ATPLs but no type rating, one went to Fly(may)be and was type rated on the Q400 by them and the other went to (C)Ryanair and both airlines paid for their ratings on contract that they both stayed at the airline for X amount of years - have both airlines stopped doing for this now? I only ask because if you factor in that very few UK airlines offer scholarships through Oxford Aviation Academy and you add the ATPL cost which is approx £80,000 (and thats if you pass all exams first time), and you have to add a Type Rating on top your effectively £115,000 out of pocket before you even have a job and starting pay for pilots is not good around £20-30k for a F/O, its only when you get promoted to Captain do you start earining big money so how on earth can an individual be expected to put all that cash upfront :-\
ukatlantic, welcome to my life hahaha... its called rich dads.. :(
Karl, I know how bad the pilot market is.. I follow it a lot since it is eventually going to be my future as well. In fact, in the Netherlands, this year about 40 pilots will retire/leave their jobs due to natural circumstances, while 600 pilots are trained by the nation's flight schools. It is that bad. Even worse, some airlines introduce a P2F (pay2fly) system where the pilot has to pay the employer to be able to get their hours on type.. And on top of that, most employers let the pilots pay their own typeratings as well.
Some airlines like FlyBe offer a cadetship through OAA as you mentioned, which includes the typerating in the price for the academy. On average, a pilot should expect to take a loan of around €175.000 in total. There are two problems with the "FlyBe-way", however: 1. They train on the MPL standard, not the generally accepted CPL, and 2. they offer you merely a summer contract for 6 months (so after those six months, they're free to give you the au revoir). It probably can't get any worse than this..
Anyway, because it is recently such a common practice to let the pilot pay its own typeratings and such, I was asking how it is modeled and whether we should include it.
Quote from: J. Oates on May 21, 2011, 07:17:35 PM
ukatlantic, welcome to my life hahaha... its called rich dads.. :(
Take it you want to be a pilot, but can't because of the cost? :-\
No I am a PPL pilot, my dad is "well off" one could say, and hes a pilot (not as a career) but he uses his planes for business/pleasure. So I am EXTREMELY fortunate to be in my shoes, and I know some are not as fortunate. I do wonder though if there are loans out there, because I don't think EVERY pilot out there had the money to do training.
Oates, 99,99% of all trained pilots have a loan to pay for their licenses.
Quote from: Quinoky on May 21, 2011, 07:20:43 PM
, some airlines introduce a P2F (pay2fly) system where the pilot has to pay the employer to be able to get their hours on type.
Never heard of that, thats pretty immoral if you ask me, and surely cant be legal :-\. Anyway how far are you into your training as a pilot?
Haven't started yet, will start in about three years after my university BSc.
really? it must be so difficult to pay it back, as a matter of interest who gives these loans? surely not the banks ???
Quote from: J. Oates on May 21, 2011, 07:27:08 PM
really? it must be so difficult to pay it back, as a matter of interest who gives these loans? surely not the banks ???
Banks, yes. Under some pretty poor terms (interest alone is about €700 a month once you start paying it off).
wow.... thats disgusting/wrong in so many ways
Quote from: J. Oates on May 21, 2011, 07:24:15 PM
No I am a PPL pilot, my dad is "well off" one could say, and hes a pilot (not as a career) but he uses his planes for business/pleasure. So I am EXTREMELY fortunate to be in my shoes, and I know some are not as fortunate. I do wonder though if there are loans out there, because I don't think EVERY pilot out there had the money to do training.
HSBC offer a specialist pilot training loan upto £110k from what I can remember, the disadvantge...you must have a house to use as the loan security. Also in the UK if you fail your Instrument Rating, the CAA can turn around and say that you dont get another chance to do it. A work Colleague of mine has a friend who was doing his IR for ATPL he failed it the first time, the second time he failed again and the CAA said there was no 3rd time for him. So he paid out all that cash and can't fly commercial!
Yea Im in the UK and I'm aware of that CAA rule... My dad won't let me learn in America (where I was born) because he thinks the training is crap, hence the reason hes making me learn at oxford (where he learnt). I have a feeling the IR will be really difficult over here, hes always testing me hahaha
Like Karl said, you must have a security so in most cases, that's your parent's house. In some really p*** poor cases I've heard, some guys who held their licenses and couldn't find a job were forced to just take any job as e.g. a cleaner to pay the loan, because otherwise they'd lose their loan security. :-\
Quote from: J. Oates on May 21, 2011, 07:31:52 PM
Yea Im in the UK and I'm aware of that CAA rule... My dad won't let me learn in America (where I was born) because he thinks the training is crap, hence the reason hes making me learn at oxford (where he learnt). I have a feeling the IR will be really difficult over here, hes always testing me hahaha
OAA is recognised as one of the worlds best training acadamies, hence why BA (not sure about virgin) tend to prefer to recruit their pilots from there.
Oh and if that's not bad enough already, those who managed to obtain their CPL/fATPL license can't just sit and wait for years to get a job. They have to stay current, which means that they have to have an X number of flight hours a year followed by an exam to "prove" they're still proficient. And obtaining those hours can be very costly (just look up the cost of one hour in a simulator..).
Quote from: ukatlantic on May 21, 2011, 07:34:54 PM
OAA is recognised as one of the worlds best training acadamies, hence why BA (not sure about virgin) tend to prefer to recruit their pilots from there.
Yup, but BA is in a pretty poor financial state and Virgin only hires pilots with a certain number of hours on their logbook.
Yes, but let me get this straight, I barely got a B on my Maths GCSE, and I'm studying a BTEC National Diploma in Aviation Studies, not exactly your A-level student... I'll go to Uni and get a degree in Aviation Management, but not Aeronautical Engineering... so Im not sure im up the "mathematical standard" ... I am however a good PPL pilot lol
You mean for pilot training? Those maths and physics requirements are very minimal.
Yes for pilot training, my dad is VERY critical when it comes to my Maths standard, though I did get an A on my science GCSE, I barely got a B on maths :-\
Quote from: Quinoky on May 21, 2011, 07:36:22 PM
Yup, but BA is in a pretty poor financial state and Virgin only hires pilots with a certain number of hours on their logbook.
BA isnt in as bad state as you think, I saw their public accounts for last year and the had around £1Billion in cash reserves and further access to the same amount again. They aren;t going anywhere anytime soon. As for Virgin I know about them, they were (not so sure if they still are) actively recruiting Pilots from the RAF and have done so for a number of years, which was a pain for me!
Quote from: Quinoky on May 21, 2011, 07:38:09 PM
You mean for pilot training? Those maths and physics requirements are very minimal.
A friend of mine is at Uni studying applied Mathmatics (was going to do Astrophysics or some other science guff) just so he's fully prepared for OAA when he starts in 3 years time :laugh:
Quote from: ukatlantic on May 21, 2011, 07:41:55 PM
A friend of mine is at Uni studying applied Mathmatics (was going to do Astrophysics or some other science guff) just so he's fully prepared for OAA when he starts in 3 years time :laugh:
ahhh.... lol no way could i do that... Im studying a BTEC in Aviation (worth 3 A-levels)... then probably Aerospace Technology or Aviation Management
Quote from: J. Oates on May 21, 2011, 07:39:32 PM
Yes for pilot training, my dad is VERY critical when it comes to my Maths standard, though I did get an A on my science GCSE, I barely got a B on maths :-\
B ;D hey, I am happy if I can keep up me D+ but I am just too lazy to attend maths class, as I have schools WiFi (--> AWS!!!) ;D
Wow, I actually feel bad for all those pilot enthusiasts out there that have to get a loan to live their dream :-\
In Australia, they have this thing called HECS, which is an acronym for Higher Education Contributions Scheme (if you didn't already know). This means that a student at the university does NOT have to pay for the degree course fees at once, upfront, at the end etc. but they pay it with small fees when they get a full time job and this is done over a few years. I'm pretty sure a certain amount needs to be paid every year once the student starts a full time job, but it isn't a lot. They NOW are allowing students to HECS their university degree in Aviation, thank GOD!
Good luck to those studying ;D
The problem with getting your pilots license in the UK is that the government doesn't see it as education, but training. So things such as the HECS you mentioned above are available to university students through government funded schemes, but not pilots. It is not counted as full time education even though you spend some 30 weeks doing ground school, and on top of that, there are even no tax reliefs as it is counted as training. So you pay out of the nose to be part of an ab-initio training scheme which has nowhere near the infrastructure to cope with the rise in global demands for pilots, and don't expect it to get any help from the government now.
/rant
I'd all but given up on the idea but then I discovered that Lufthansa pay for their pilots' ATPL and type ratings upfront, but you're locked into the company for 5 years or something. Never have I been so glad that I took A-level German! :o
If you're proficient in German the link's here- http://www.lufthansa-pilot.de/ (http://www.lufthansa-pilot.de/) - it's worth a look but Google translate doesn't do a very good job if you can't speak the lingo.