Isn't there a hypocritical irony in saying don't go to big airports?
Small airplanes are useless. If it isn't over 50 seats, you won't make enough money to run.
We're constantly told, even when choosing our base when entering a world, to not choose big airports. I understand that, the top 20 or whatever will have like 30 airlines based at them.
So the next logical step is a medium sized airport. But medium sized airports are useless. For example, one of my airlines is hubbed in Brasilia, which is ranked 5th over the two airports of Sao Paulo and the two airports of Rio de Janeiro. In doing research, I chose Brasilia because most airports, probably within the top 100, had at least two airlines based at them already. Generally speaking, it is impossible to compete with two airlines, and in the Dawn of the Millennium game the number of route pairs over 100 seats are essentially gone between the two almost immediately.
So here I am, at Brasilia. I have smaller passenger numbers, but enough to fill up a few 737's, just about the most cost effective airplane currently, right? Wrong. Flights to Sao Paulo and Rio are already flooded by airlines from those respective airports, with my hub being a spoke. Reviewing the rest of the routes, I've got about 6 cities that I can fly to that have a demand over 100. The other 55 or so airports in Brazil have 20 passengers a day. I can't expand on 20 passengers a day. One can argue, oh, Brasil's aviation boom hasn't happened yet. Well, according to my other game in 1996, 15 years later, the boom hasn't happened yet either, as the routes between the major hubs have tripled in passenger capacity, yet the other destinations haven't even seen an increase. The same is true of other places. Cape Town, South Africa's second airport has the demand to support service to about 10 places. If you're not in Johannesburg, don't even bother with this half of the continent.
So basically, I'm going to be stuck operating around 10 737-200's for the next 20 years if I'm lucky, which equates to one airplane every 4 real weeks, which actually seems about the course considering the only options on the used aircraft market are aircraft less efficient than pouring gasoline into a hole and lighting it on fire. But that's another story.
So I kind of feel like I'm being fed bulls*** in saying choose a less busy airport. I realize that not everyone is going to have the same experience or success, but come on. I'm being charged weekly when I can't even make changes to my airline in the span of a month. Are all the other airlines that didn't get first choice of a major hub content with this? I'm all for operating a cuddly little airline, but 10 routes is worthless. I guess this is what happens when you let loose 450 airlines vying for the world supply of passengers that could support maybe a third of that. I don't know if route demand needs to be tweaked upwards, or if worlds need to be made smaller, but I'm not planning on purchasing more credits so I can operate an airline that I can't do anything with.
I agree with you, the world size is fine but the number of players needs to be cut back. I understand they need to make money off this game but at the same time, if you are off to a slow start or join later in the game even if you do get a good start at a big airport and do start making good money you are limited because you can't buy any planes or order new ones because there is 400+ orders and a 2 year wait.
It's all about being the first one and getting a good grip on at a big airport and first dibbs on the good used planes other than that you'll be flying 10 planes out in the middle of nowhere waiting 3 years for a plane you ordered because you are #576 in line.....
I constantly play in 50-60 size airports and don't have much of a problem...
The main thing is location location location.... And know what to target.
If we ever get regional image and passenger connection most of your woes will be solved.
but I will agree that there are too many players in teh world...
The most fun I had in this game was in the beginners world, where there were about 200 players.
I agree with the opening posters. In some cases AWS does seem to be a bit of a money drain if you don't base in a big airport. You just seem to go along for a while in incredible mediocrity then go bankrupt when some massive player entirely saturates your routes. And if you try basing in a big airport then you get simply squashed by another airline who knows how to exploit the little quirks of AWS. Thats happened to me many times.
Frankly before there are some big changes to the game engine there need to be some changes to game play. Regional and small airlines NEED to be possible so we can run airlines that are not just another generic airline flying B737/A320s and wide-bodies. Small and medium routes and airports NEED to be made in any way exploitable. The nonsensical quirks NEED to be dealt with like the frequency over everything else rule on routes and the way high demand short haul routes can be exploited in such a way as to catapult airlines to unimaginable riches in barely a game year.
IMO starting needs to be made harder across the board. The recent changes seem to have made starting up at smaller and medium locations harder but the Heathrow's and Atlanta's of the world still seem easy as pie.
Quote from: LOT767 on November 19, 2010, 05:29:31 PM
I agree with you, the world size is fine but the number of players needs to be cut back.
Nope, the traffic demands could easily support 1000 players or so... But one cannot expect to grow to have 100 plane fleet from a regional airport. People quite often suggest 100-200 player worlds but that is not possible since that would lead to rather fast boredom since 200-300 players using the whole world is just way too little to start with.
But of course an airline cannot live off an airport that has 10 000 pax a year. So picking too small airport won't work.
Quote from: sami on November 19, 2010, 06:12:03 PM
Nope, the traffic demands could easily support 1000 players or so... But one cannot expect to grow to have 100 plane fleet from a regional airport. People quite often suggest 100-200 player worlds but that is not possible since that would lead to rather fast boredom since 200-300 players using the whole world is just way too little to start with.
But of course an airline cannot live off an airport that has 10 000 pax a year. So picking too small airport won't work.
So what do you suggest I do? Operate a fleet of 10 aircraft for 5 real-time months, meanwhile boring myself to death? Bankrupt my airline by trying to compete with a major airline whose economy of scale is established almost immediately and will crush me? Withdraw from the game and wish me better luck next time that I join within the first day? Is Cape Town a regional airport? Is Brasilia a regional airport? If they are, where do you suggest I base my airline? If they're not, why do the passenger numbers from them support 10 to 20 routes?
I'd be amazed to see a 1000 player world based on current traffic demands. There would be 50 or so major airlines that had the advantage of scaling up directly from the beginning, and 950 players duking it out with one or two airplanes trying to retain ownership of what they already have.
I really doubt that 10 planes is the max for you. I popped up your airline out of interest and checked the demands from the HQ airport, and there seems to be reasonable amount of routes that have >50pax demand. But I won't say there are 'endless' possibilities, but still something to keep you busy for a while? But I agree that even with 20 odd planes, there isn't that much activity provided (yet) to keep you entertained for the entire duration of the game world. I would like to introduce more features that are not related to new planes & expansion, but problem is to make them such that bigger airlines won't become unmanageable by the workload.
If you feel like changing the airport you of course have the 3 "free" bankruptcies available.
(Also; I know that the staff requirements for operating very small planes (<20 pax) isn't good yet. Hoping to check into that in v.1.3 development)
Quote from: Jetsetter on November 19, 2010, 06:40:32 PM
So what do you suggest I do? Operate a fleet of 10 aircraft for 5 real-time months, meanwhile boring myself to death? Bankrupt my airline by trying to compete with a major airline whose economy of scale is established almost immediately and will crush me? Withdraw from the game and wish me better luck next time that I join within the first day? Is Cape Town a regional airport? Is Brasilia a regional airport? If they are, where do you suggest I base my airline? If they're not, why do the passenger numbers from them support 10 to 20 routes?
I'd be amazed to see a 1000 player world based on current traffic demands. There would be 50 or so major airlines that had the advantage of scaling up directly from the beginning, and 950 players duking it out with one or two airplanes trying to retain ownership of what they already have.
Have you tried flying at a big airport? There are plenty of opportunities at big airports for new airlines. You just have to realize that not everybody's going to be able to fly the Heathrow-Charles De Gaulle route. But there are plenty of opportunities in other, BigAirport-MediumAirport or BigAirport-SmallAirport markets.
And I'm not a big guy. In DOTM, I operate 1 DC-10-40 and 2 707-320B Adv with two 707s on order. Out of Dallas-Fort Worth. But I make money, and I have plenty of growth opportunity.
You'd be surprised about medium-size airports too. In MT2, I ran a DH8 and 757 airline out of Santa Cruz, Bolivia. I got up to 23 A/C before I got bored.
It's just a game. Sami has created a great thing, and if you don't like it, don't pay.
Quote from: RushmoreAir on November 19, 2010, 06:52:44 PM
Have you tried flying at a big airport? There are plenty of opportunities at big airports for new airlines. You just have to realize that not everybody's going to be able to fly the Heathrow-Charles De Gaulle route. But there are plenty of opportunities in other, BigAirport-MediumAirport or BigAirport-SmallAirport markets.
And I'm not a big guy. In DOTM, I operate 1 DC-10-40 and 2 707-320B Adv with two 707s on order. Out of Dallas-Fort Worth. But I make money, and I have plenty of growth opportunity.
You'd be surprised about medium-size airports too. In MT2, I ran a DH8 and 757 airline out of Santa Cruz, Bolivia. I got up to 23 A/C before I got bored.
It's just a game. Sami has created a great thing, and if you don't like it, don't pay.
Economies of scale. In the Beginners world I run the sole airline based at Beijing. If another airline were to start, what would I do? Saturate their route. Not only do I run the routes between the big cities, I run the routes to all the small destinations too, being limited by slots. I'm not debating the competitive merits of the game, as I have run a big airline and understand what it involves. The foundations of this have begun to emerge, and as airlines grow larger there will simply be no more routes to fly, a problem more clearly defined by a larger world. Once LHR-CDG style routes have all available seats taken between the major carriers, the the major carriers will start to fight it out on the routes formerly occupied by your "niche" airline. Your growth opportunities will vanish until you can choose from a price war or capacity p***ing match. My argument is that over the course of 5 months, 4 of those are going to be the latter in a 500 player world.
We are encouraged not to operate at a big airport, as they will be loaded with airlines almost immediately. So if there are such limited growth prospects at medium airports, why not say join the big airports and hopefully you'll find a niche that the big airlines haven't recognized?
This next section is much more generalized than the specific problems I face in game. I'm voicing my opinion with a lack of counter-ideas. But I'm glad Sami affirmed that there is a lack of action, especially for smaller airlines. I don't feel I get the value expected by myself, whereas those operating major airlines are. Saying if I don't like then not to pay isn't the answer, as any business will strive to have a constant development and be reactionary to their customers. I realize I could very well be in the minority in regards to being uncomfortable with the current system, and if my concerns are negligible, so be it. I'll go play Bad Company 2 in time previously occupied by Airwaysim. But if I chose to remain silent, and simply left without expressing my problems with it, then there's a lack of constructive criticism that I'm sure would shape some of the ways the game is developed in the future, for the benefit of all.
I can also appreciate the addition of more elements to decrease the downtime between scheduling airplanes in the future, and clearly there are efforts being made to make the simulation better. Hopefully I've illustrated some of the barriers that prevent a greater enjoyment of the game that have hopefully been evidenced by others that find themselves in a similar position to me.
Until the game reaches some generally accepted semblance of equilibrium, an unenviable task to code I'm sure, I'll find that I just don't have enough to do in regards to running my airline, and feel that I'm "unfairly" disadvantaged, which may very well end in me letting the duration of my credits expire.
If you want to see a pretty good operation out of a small airport look at mine at HPN on MT3.
Quote from: sami on November 19, 2010, 06:51:42 PM
(Also; I know that the staff requirements for operating very small planes (<20 pax) isn't good yet. Hoping to check into that in v.1.3 development)
That sounds good to me. I for one look forward to operating a commuter airline as after all the aircraft I have experience with and enjoy are the under 50-seat props, mostly Brasilia's and Metro's.
Quote from: RushmoreAir on November 19, 2010, 06:52:44 PM
Have you tried flying at a big airport? There are plenty of opportunities at big airports for new airlines. You just have to realize that not everybody's going to be able to fly the Heathrow-Charles De Gaulle route. But there are plenty of opportunities in other, BigAirport-MediumAirport or BigAirport-SmallAirport markets.
No there isn't. The aforementioned slot stealing super airlines are already there. Within a few game years you simply cannot fly into anything like Heathrow, Atlanta, CDG, Schipol, Narita as they are just full.
Anyone reading this thread who has always had the luck of starting in the big airports, and succeeding there should for a change fly from a smaller airport then tell those of us complaining that we are whining and its easy. TBH thats another thing, there should be something to stop the same players basing in the same massive airports in successive game worlds which is something I've spotted. The same names appear at the same massive airports in every game world and in every game world they become the "super airlines". Give the rest of us a chance.
Quote from: Dave4468 on November 20, 2010, 12:29:42 AM
No there isn't. The aforementioned slot stealing super airlines are already there. Within a few game years you simply cannot fly into anything like Heathrow, Atlanta, CDG, Schipol, Narita as they are just full.
I am all for the slots growth based on demand for slots. At one point Sami mentioned he is considering it for future version.
In real life, airports expand when physically possible, based on demand, why not AWS? In real life, there are some airports that just have physical constraints, such as JFK, LGA in New York, but over the years, I have noticed a lot of growth in Frankfurt, Munich, Vienna...
Vienna in particular had a huge growth - percentagewise. There was just one terminal in the 80s. I am not sure when they added a 2nd runway. 2nd terminal was added I guess in 90s. 3rd terminal and a 3rd runway are already planned.
Quote from: Jetsetter on November 19, 2010, 05:17:30 PM
737's, just about the most cost effective airplane currently, right?
Depends. On short routes, I'll use my Folker Friendships to wipe the floor with your '37s. What they lack in efficancy they make up for in lease rates. If you want to play small airports, play small aircraft. They work.
Quote from: JumboShrimp on November 20, 2010, 01:12:38 AM
I am all for the slots growth based on demand for slots. At one point Sami mentioned he is considering it for future version.
In real life, airports expand when physically possible, based on demand, why not AWS? In real life, there are some airports that just have physical constraints, such as JFK, LGA in New York, but over the years, I have noticed a lot of growth in Frankfurt, Munich, Vienna...
Vienna in particular had a huge growth - percentagewise. There was just one terminal in the 80s. I am not sure when they added a 2nd runway. 2nd terminal was added I guess in 90s. 3rd terminal and a 3rd runway are already planned.
This is true. Anyone remember AirBiz for the SNES? In that one, airports expanded when the hub carrier used all the slots, and it was not free reign on slots...a HQ airline could get about half the slots, while a hub airline could get about 1/4. A primitive game, I know, but it is what started it all for me.....
Back to the OP....there are plenty of mid sized airports that will support a good sized airline. In MT3, I am in Xiamen in China, currently have a fleet of about 60 planes with more on the way and lots of unserved demand. Another favorite of mine is GUM, which is often overlooked. I have operated multiple 60+ frame airlines out of there, and it is part of the US so you have many base options.
Don
I think your country of choice along with the airport size is causing your issue. If you chose a similar sized airport in Asia, US or Europe, you would have significantly more opportunity as there are more larger cities to connect your airport to.
Quote from: schro on November 20, 2010, 06:43:46 PM
I think your country of choice along with the airport size is causing your issue. If you chose a similar sized airport in Asia, US or Europe, you would have significantly more opportunity as there are more larger cities to connect your airport to.
No you don't.
I've started an airline at Birmingham International (US Birmingham, not the original and best UK one! :P) and there was only one large un-flown route. All the other big routes are already saturated by the massive airlines. Same applies in Europe, I've gone bankrupt and tried from smaller airports (Bristol, that sort of size), useless.
AWS is bordering on unplayable if you don't manage to take off (no pun intended) very quickly at a big airport and get new orders in quick. You are simply left with no routes to fly and a used aircraft market which makes restarting impossible anyway.
Dave4468 does have a point that the game is unplayable. Yes, there are some airports if you click around (at least in North America) that you can get a decent run at there really is you have to look for them. But, if you look at the used market there is nothing, this game is unplayable. What's the point in restarting when there is 1 page of planes in the used market no Airbus and 4 Boeings with one knucklehead thinking he is going to get 95 million for a 737-800. I tried to order a plane the other (real life) day and it was a 4 year wait....this is pointless and frustrating. I wouldn't be complaining if this was a free game, but I have been buying credits regularly hoping to get a start and a shot to run a decent airline. Now, I'm just waiting for my credits to run out so I can move on sadly.
Just for record, I've managed to grab 10 7 year-old B737-700s from used aircraft market within the last 3 or 4 (real) days.
And, I could have gotten more, if there hasn't been the 2 aircraft/day limit, for there were 2 occurances, when there were some 20 B737s at the market at the same time.
So, you jsut have to be a bit patient (and lucky).
Or boaden your horizons and don't follow the pack to 737's, A32X's, and E95's ;)
Look a bit deeper....great airplanes can be purchased from the new market cheap with little wait. Look at the MA60, AN-140, AN-148, 717, CR9 just to name a few. Of those, the longest backlog is the 717 at 108, with delivery slots available within 3 months still All others have delivery slots availabe within 2 game months. Order today, get planes tommorow.
Don
Quote from: jetwestinc on November 20, 2010, 09:45:59 PM
Or boaden your horizons and don't follow the pack to 737's, A32X's, and E95's ;)
Look a bit deeper....great airplanes can be purchased from the new market cheap with little wait. Look at the MA60, AN-140, AN-148, 717, CR9 just to name a few. Of those, the longest backlog is the 717 at 108, with delivery slots available within 3 months still All others have delivery slots availabe within 2 game months. Order today, get planes tommorow.
Don
I understand your point, but being based in Iceland kind of makes it tricky to go for the smaller planes with decent range to be able to make it the North America and Europe with profitable results.
Quote from: LOT767 on November 20, 2010, 09:48:36 PM
I understand your point, but being based in Iceland kind of makes it tricky to go for the smaller planes with decent range to be able to make it the North America and Europe with profitable results.
Makes sense. Could you make TU-204's work until 737-800's,-900ER's or 757-200's would arrive? Not optimal, but a short wait for those too. Would the 2120nm AN-148E be enough range to serve some of Europe until, say, 737-600's could be obtained?
Don
Quote from: jetwestinc on November 20, 2010, 10:00:04 PM
Makes sense. Could you make TU-204's work until 737-800's,-900ER's or 757-200's would arrive? Not optimal, but a short wait for those too. Would the 2120nm AN-148E be enough range to serve some of Europe until, say, 737-600's could be obtained?
Don
Thats a very good call, the TU-204-200 is perfect. I did however just shoot myself in the foot with leasing another 763 and 762 that I JUST happened to find on the used market. But it should not be long before I can make up the money to lease 6 and run them on my key routes, and the 180 pax seating is optimal on my routes to North America. I was hoping to run 752's but the TU-204's should do good on those routes.
Thanks!
Another point is that Brazilian airports aren't with real demands even for the age of the game, since they were much higher. I think it happens with other countries too. It could be fixed in the future. For example, in Beginner World it's impossible to fly Salvador-Recife, Salvador-Brasilia or Rio de Janeiro (Santos Dumont)-Brasilia due to low demand, but it's not real not even for the 80's.
Top 10 airline from Class 4 airport (40% demand). Done.
Its not hard to create a successful airline once you have an idea of what your doing...
Talentz
I based a fairly successful airline out of Brasilia before, so I might be able to help. My first piece of advice - go for places that are specifically FULL. Mow people down as if they're not there. Trust me, IT WORKS. ;) Second, don't go for the Class A airports right away - and don't just go domestic. Take a look at Argentina, Bolivia, Paraguay, Uruguay, Venezuela, Columbia, Peru, Ecuador and so on. There is plenty of demand elsewhere in South America, and if you feel you're trapped by those other airlines in GRU/GIG etc, go against them on PURPOSE. Like I said, mow them down as if they're not even there. I got up to 30 aircraft from Brasilia until I felt like a little testing with some stuff and...I'll leave it at that. ;)
Cheers,
ICEcold
btw. I started an airline in DOTM at Hurghada yesterday (pretty medium airport I think), using some 15yo Caravelles just to see how it all works. Goes OK so far..
Plenty of used planes if you accept the older models, enough demands etc. So I do not agree at all of these "unplayable", "no used planes" etc. comments that a poster made. There are no "empty" routes but one shouldn't expect those either - have to have the guts to enter a market with other airlines.
(MT3 seems to have limited used market at the moment, but I'm looking into that later today)
Quote from: sami on November 21, 2010, 12:00:56 PM
(MT3 seems to have limited used market at the moment, but I'm looking into that later today)
Limited? There's only 8 bloody planes, and two of them are direct purchase only. The rest of them are the typical used market fodder.
If I joined MT3 now I'd be sending you an email asking for my 5 credits back.
To be fair, one of them is in 100% condition. ;D