Anyone know when its starting or what it might be?
One of the things that is slightly problematic about the game is that you need a good start. If you make a hash of it then you are pretty much out of it... no slots, no (decent) planes...
No slots?
How many slots do you want?
It's not the fault of the game most newbies start at the most congested airports.
Are you sure slots are your problem and not the fact that your base is Keflavik? Or that your fleet are three 21 year old Il-62M?
Quote from: Jimbo on May 16, 2010, 09:57:56 PM
One of the things that is slightly problematic about the game is that you need a good start. If you make a hash of it then you are pretty much out of it... no slots, no (decent) planes...
I'm finding this to be the case, as well. If you don't get your a/c spot on at the beginning or have to bankrupt for some reason within the first year or so, it can be incredibly difficult to catch up. By the time you do, demand on the biggest routes is likely to have already been oversupplied. I think a lot of the reason why airlines remain trapped in small slices of market share is due to the lack of used a/c on the market coupled with the fact that many people, like me, don't have time or opportunity to attend to their browser windows as often as it would take to find an a/c in our fleet types. Even assuming you could get several a/c in short order, though, I have to wonder how far you could progress considering your competitors' head start. And then, if people start building bases in your airport, you have multiple larger competitors knocking you off your routes, and it just gets worse from there.
Quote from: Maarten Otto on May 16, 2010, 10:05:53 PM
It's not the fault of the game most newbies start at the most congested airports.
Where would you suggest? Podunk?
While I certainly don't disagree that getting a late start or having to start over puts you at a disadvantage, be careful about the "catch up" mentality. The object of AWS is to simulate the real world business of founding and running an airline. This involves a lot more than just grabbing slots, building a vast network of routes, having dozens and dozens of aircraft, etc... You must, must, must have a long-term growth strategy and build your business based upon sensible growth and sound financial reasoning. Building from a busy airport with lots of demand and not much competition helps get this going really fast but can you - I mean you - properly manage and run an airline with hundreds of routes and hundreds of aircraft? AWS is pitting each of us against real people - people with individual personalities, individual talents and individual weaknesses (some of which are greed ;D). Don't just assume that the airline at the top of the chart today is being run by someone with the skills it takes to be successful at it for the long-term. They may well be very skilled - or they may, in fact, be growing beyond their ability to manage it effectively. Or, they may reach a point at which they feel they have done all they set out to do and "poof" they suddenly bankrupt for no apparent reason. I've see it happen time and time again. My point in all this rambling is that you need to run "your" business the way you would run it in real life - otherwise AWS is just a game and not a simulation. And in real life, airlines do compete with one another and they do base themselves in lesser airports and they do just fine. Take Alaska Airlines as an example ... they aren't the biggest by any stretch but they are successful. That's what AWS is all about ... for me, anyway ... being successful (profitable) until the end of any given game world. ;D
Some very useful thoughts there GoGreen - thanks. I guess it is important to remind yourself what you are trying to get out of the game. "Winning" it is perhaps the wrong mentality... since there is no definition of winning I suppose.
(Curse - wrong game - I have abandoned that one)
Quote from: Jimbo on May 17, 2010, 09:30:35 AM
I guess it is important to remind yourself what you are trying to get out of the game. "Winning" it is perhaps the wrong mentality... since there is no definition of winning I suppose.
I agree.
I like to set myself goals, I envisage to myself what type of airline I would like to build (sometimes based on a real airline), then go and try to achieve it and my sense of winning is when I see my vision unfold in front of me.
When I first started I set myself really basic goals like buy a new plane, own a plane, get this fleet type etc.
At the moment in ATB I decided to try and create a UK based holiday airline flying to all the sunny destinations in Europe, similar to Thomson, Monarch, Airtours... etc.
Not all about having the biggest and best airline for me, as long as I get what I want out of the game.
And I have an idea of what type of airline I want to try in the next game, maybe an American domestic carrier in the US.
Quote from: Grimvisage on May 17, 2010, 01:44:07 AM
I'm finding this to be the case, as well. If you don't get your a/c spot on at the beginning or have to bankrupt for some reason within the first year or so, it can be incredibly difficult to catch up. By the time you do, demand on the biggest routes is likely to have already been oversupplied. I think a lot of the reason why airlines remain trapped in small slices of market share is due to the lack of used a/c on the market coupled with the fact that many people, like me, don't have time or opportunity to attend to their browser windows as often as it would take to find an a/c in our fleet types. Even assuming you could get several a/c in short order, though, I have to wonder how far you could progress considering your competitors' head start. And then, if people start building bases in your airport, you have multiple larger competitors knocking you off your routes, and it just gets worse from there.
Where would you suggest? Podunk?
Good one! This Maarten guy is always basing on newbies and very insulting to them. Thats not right. I think we should try to help each other without being smartasses about it. ;)
Quote from: Maarten Otto on May 16, 2010, 10:05:53 PM
No slots?
How many slots do you want?
It's not the fault of the game most newbies start at the most congested airports.
It's a natural thing to want to do. Get off their backs and play your own game and for God sake be quiet if not at least polite and have sense of what manners are. >:(
Quote from: Maarten Otto on May 16, 2010, 10:05:53 PM
No slots?
How many slots do you want?
It's not the fault of the game most newbies start at the most congested airports.
he's got a point though. ;) stop basing at the biggest airports and slowly bring yourself up from smaller airports up to larger airports becoming better and better. Don't go directly from a Cessna 152 to a B747.....it's just unethical! Start small, build your airline up and when you've mastered everything, THEN, and
only then, shoot for NRT/LHR/FRA etc. I'm still working my way up, even though I'm already a senior member of aws (but that's a different story ALTOGETHER).
Cheers,
ICEcold
Quote from: ICEcold on May 18, 2010, 01:09:56 AM
he's got a point though. ;) stop basing at the biggest airports and slowly bring yourself up from smaller airports up to larger airports becoming better and better. Don't go directly from a Cessna 152 to a B747.....it's just unethical! Start small, build your airline up and when you've mastered everything, THEN, and only then, shoot for NRT/LHR/FRA etc. I'm still working my way up, even though I'm already a senior member of aws (but that's a different story ALTOGETHER).
Cheers,
ICEcold
In all honesty, that's bulls***.
Getting in early in the game is key! The used AC marked dries up after a few game months and it becomes increasingly harder to establish a new airline. And by the time you're profitable enough to order new AC the order backlog is 2-3 years and you're out of luck.
Sure you don't have to start out at LHR, but if you're flying in europe, flying TO LHR is about THE most profitable route you'll ever fly. Not flying to LHR would be the biggest mistake you'll ever make since the slots would fill up fast.
Getting hands on AC is the biggest challenge when you start up and I it's really just a myth that you should start up with small AC.
if you got the chance to fly a route with high pax demand and don't really have any competiton why opt for a 50 seater?
that makes absolutely no sense, and the more seats you can sell the more money you make.
And getting into an airport where the international longhaul marked is good is always smart. cus that's where the real money is.
Not in flying from boomf*** nowhere to another s***hole where the demand is low.
Seems to me that many of you "masters" just advice ppl to stay away from LHR, CDG, LAX etc so you can be there alone.
From my limited game time it would seem you have to get in fast, build up your fleet and routes before others compete and then from there, after you have a good income stream, begin to build an airline.
Quote from: Saivu on May 18, 2010, 03:36:22 AM
In all honesty, that's bulls***.
Getting in early in the game is key!
Well that's a different point altogether, since he was talking about where one bases, not
when one should start. Everyone knows the importance (but not necessarily prerequisite) of an early start.
QuoteThe used AC marked dries up after a few game months and it becomes increasingly harder to establish a new airline.
The used AC market dries up after the first
day, not after a few months. Whether you start one day later or 2 weeks later, you're still stuck in the same boat. All starting the first day gets you is the first pick on the very first day and a high chance of your very first plane being one you want. After that
everyone's on equal footing of scrounging for whatever pops up. And after about 2 game-years, and MT#2 is already nearing that point, it actually becomes very easy to find very good used planes.
QuoteAnd by the time you're profitable enough to order new AC the order backlog is 2-3 years and you're out of luck.
This is true, but with the deliveries spaced out as they are, this isn't the mammoth detriment that it used to be since your competition won't have 300 new planes by the time you get your first one. It's still a problem, sure, but by the time the queues get too many years long, the availability of better planes on the Used market starts to come around so it's much easier to find some there.
QuoteSure you don't have to start out at LHR, but if you're flying in europe, flying TO LHR is about THE most profitable route you'll ever fly.
Not necessarily. Flights to/from LHR are going to have a TON of competition on them. They generally aren't the most profitable ones around. With 1.2, that's changed somewhat since your competition to LHR is limited to only those in your base and at LHR -- when sami turns fifth freedoms on again for the next games, you'll once again by facing LOTS of airlines fighting for that traffic on your LHR-bound routes from within Europe. Your only saving grace there is that, eventually, the slots are full and people leave your flights alone.
QuoteGetting hands on AC is the biggest challenge when you start up and I it's really just a myth that you should start up with small AC.
I don't know who in the world says you should start with small AC since the difficulty of the game is inversely related to the size of your plane. That'd be pretty stupid advice.
QuoteAnd getting into an airport where the international longhaul marked is good is always smart. cus that's where the real money is.
Not in flying from boomf*** nowhere to another s***hole where the demand is low.
Demand may be low, but competition is likely completely nil. It's better to move 250pax at full price than 2000 of them barely breaking even. I'm not disagreeing that the international game is where the cash is -- of course it is (though I've run several of the largest airlines in a game without so much as
ever operating a long-haul international route). But rather that one shouldn't discount the value of having a smaller airport all to oneself, where you can fly your planes completely full and charge full-price -- a FAR more lucrative offer than having them fly half-full at 25-50% off, which is the norm at any of the larger airports.
QuoteSeems to me that many of you "masters" just advice ppl to stay away from LHR, CDG, LAX etc so you can be there alone.
Give me a break. ::) Do you really think these so-called "masters" really care if the "newbies" start there or not? They'll just run them over as if they were so much as an inconsequential speed-bump along their uber-sprint to world domination. Hell, if anything, I'd
prefer if they did that way the slots got sucked up by someone I could run out of business later and suck up their slots at my pleasure, rather than someone stronger sniping them all up that I'd have a hard time running out of business (especially if it was someone based elsewhere).
Having "newbies" stay away from the cut-throat competition just makes damn good sense. Flying against someone who knows the ins and outs of gaming the game at someplace like LHR is just a ticket to Bankruptcy and inevitable discouragement. All it does is fill the boards with complaints on why someone has 25 planes already when they can't even get 3, they get p***ed off, and then leave. That's not good for anyone.
Starting someplace smaller
IS good advice. No one's saying you got to start in Bumf***, Nowhere. Just someplace small
er. Yes, the lack of ABCBA routes makes that strategy a little harder than it once was, and that will be remedied shortly. But you can still fly from HUNDREDS of less-than-huge airports, likely be quite alone, and learn the ins-and-outs of the game
before being run out of business for the 3rd time in as many days. I, for example, started my very first game in Seattle, after the game was over half-done, and ended up being the largest carrier there when it was done.
This is just basic common sense in any situation, virtual or otherwise. You don't go learn to tread water in the deep end of the pool because, in this case, you
will drown. If you're going to base in LHR, CDG, LAX, whereever, then you better be ready to bring it from the very first
minute the game starts. Because the guys that win there, the ones that will eventually run you out, are not only the ones that know precisely what routes to operate at what configuration, and every last detail on pulling the most pennies from the loan market to finance their aggressive expansion, but also tend to be the ones that are refreshing their Used aircraft screens every 5 minutes all day long.
Look at it this way -- if you played in an airport where you can survive more than a couple game-years then it really wouldn't matter that you couldn't start up
another airline in the middle of the game, would it (aside from the newbies who didn't start on Day One)? If you pick a location where you've got slim chances of survival then you're only setting yourself up for failure not only in that airline but making each subsequent one that much harder because you're starting mid-stream.
Omg... I laughed so hard reading that Sigma :laugh:
That was good.
-Talentz
I think stat up late in a smaller airport is always possible, but you have to know more about what you can use in the game world: the market, the planes, etc.
Just some ideas about this:
When you get into the world try to find an smaller but empty airport (nobody or only small airline based with). Empty place means empty demands to be fill and lots of slots to use, your grow will not be limited in the first stage of your game. Big airports also means big competiton, unless you know it very well and there are no airline based (maybe the old one is gone) never try to start there.
If you know a empty airport well (especially if you know there should have a big domestic traffic), try to go and start there. You can play it in a much easier way or even know something others do not aware of.
You can try develope high income international routes if you know how to do it. It can bring in cash quickly, but remember to do something on domestic/short haul international traffic when you get some cash returned into your pocket. They are always your best friend and always support you with stable income if you do not make big mistakes ;)
Study your base after you get started. A good research can always help you understand where you can go and this will lead to a plan of ordering planes. In a smaller airport it is more important as you have to make use of everything you have (the lesson learn from my days in South America). This may also tell you something you don't know before, such as new destination you can go.
Try to stay away from the competition in your first months. Other bigger players can easily kill you. Try to get thing they still not pick up yet and turn it into your cash. I'll suggest do not get into a route already run by others until you have all other empty routes filled, and just try to get a place at first, not try to take over it.
Hope this can help ;)
Quote from: ICEcold on May 18, 2010, 01:09:56 AM
he's got a point though. ;) stop basing at the biggest airports and slowly bring yourself up from smaller airports up to larger airports becoming better and better. Don't go directly from a Cessna 152 to a B747.....it's just unethical! Start small, build your airline up and when you've mastered everything, THEN, and only then, shoot for NRT/LHR/FRA etc. I'm still working my way up, even though I'm already a senior member of aws (but that's a different story ALTOGETHER).
Cheers,
ICEcold
Point or not, the is always room for courtesy in here. Always! To me, if you act like that, you automatically lose your point. Same with raising ones voice. Raise your voice, lose your argument automatically. State what you need to state in a polite, courteous manner or keep all your points to yourself.