http://www.cnn.com/2010/WORLD/europe/04/10/poland.president.plane.crash/index.html?hpt=T1
So sorry to anyone related to this story.
RIP :'(
This is pretty sad. So many important people in the Polish government died. A list is on the Wikipedia page for it: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2010_Polish_Air_Force_TU-154_crash
A similar thing happened to the Macedonian President Boris Trajkovski in 2004 when his plane crashed into a mountainside in Bosnia during heavy fog and rain.
It's always sad when people die, though personally, I have little sympathy for any politician. Alot of relatives of the war hero's they were going to commemorate appear to have been on the plane as well. Tragic really.
I remember years ago, we were just moving to Mozambique after this happened.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1986_Mozambican_Tupolev_Tu-134_crash
This was blamed on the South African's. Wonder if any fingers will point anywhere after this crash?
My condolences to everyone who died in this crash. So sorry for the Polish nation :(
A similar accident happend years ago in UK on a THY flight (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1959_Turkish_Airlines_Gatwick_crash) carrying the Turkish Prime Minister of that time, although the prime minister survived, many have died in that crash.
This is what happens when you fit all the eggs in one basket... It's sad... But this is why usually government officials do not travel all together on the same a/c, ship, car or bla bla bla...
Coup in Kyrgyzstan, US stops operations out of Manas. Pole's leadership, who brought in US anti-missile systems, joined the EU, and were supporters of Georgia crash over Russia after attending a Katyn Massacre memorial. To top it off another nuke treaty occured a few days ago between US and Russia limiting US's deliverance systems. CCCP is coming back?
Just some conspiracy theories for ya.
Very tragic events, the poles were even warned from what I heard. A former polish politician warned that they needed to up date their 25year old fleet. Hopfully they learn at least 2 things, When flying, new is better, and never never never have all the brass on one ship. (even though it is more economical)
The death of my country's leader is something unbelieveable for the Polish nation and me. He was a Polish patriot and a amazing President. And Rawrmaster is correct , Polish Media as well as politics warned that something like this might happen. Correction , the airplane was 20 years old. It was ordered by the Polish government in 1990 from what I read.)
There is speculation amunsgt the Polish people , because the Tu-154M was on a over-hual in Russia , and have a totaly renovated interior etc. etc. Its possible they might have sabotaged the aircraft on purpose and now the Russians are acting like it was a tradgy happened. Personally , I think they say it just because of the hate between the two countries and the fact that the plane crash accured in Russia. I don't think Russia could have done such a thing and I don't agree with the stupid speculations people talk about , but it might be a fact.. we don't know yet.
The crash most likly happened because of pilot error. The pilot was adivised by the control tower to fly to a different airport , Moscow or Minsk, because conditions were horrible in the area. The pilot was reported to ignore the message and go on and try to land. But we don't know , because already the Controller was found to lie. He said that the Polish pilot did not know Russian well and might have misunderstood him , while the pilot in the cockpit at the time was a excellent speaker of the Russian language , and his friends and family proved it. So who knows if what everything the controller said is un true?
The crash might have accured this way (be advised this is just MY OWN theory):
The pilot was advised to try and land in another airport but he made a shot and tried to land. Because he could not see the airport or the runway , he decended lower and he was supposed to thinking that he might be able to see the runway then. Only he fataly forgot to watch is altimeter correctly while he and his pilots were trying to see the runway and the plane's wing suddenly hit a tree. The pilot then realised he was way way to low and added full power (media say that he did , thats why I am asuming it MIGHT be true) only it was already to late to do anything. The plane hit another tree and other, flew passed a road and plunged to the ground.
As I mentioned , its MY OWN THEORY. In caps so everyone understands.
Once again , horrible tradgy , and thank you to all of those that expressed greif as I am Polish. Thank you once again!
Quote from: Eryk1736 on April 13, 2010, 01:07:30 AM
The death of my country's leader is something unbelieveable for the Polish nation and me. He was a Polish patriot and a amazing President. And Rawrmaster is correct , Polish Media as well as politics warned that something like this might happen. Correction , the airplane was 20 years old. It was ordered by the Polish government in 1990 from what I read.)
Sorry, I think I got the years mixed up with a helicopter incident the poles had a while back.
Anyhoo the latest I heard on the grapevine was that the President ordered the plane to land, and not to divert to Moscow. For fear the Russians may be trying to stall him from reaching the memorial services. That being said the plane made 4 pass over attempts dropping fuel each time. The plane crashed due to pilot error... I forgot where I read it at but it seems creditable.
That being said, wouldn't this plane be equipped with high end gps systems? For the most part the aircraft should of been able to land it self in the fog.
What's funny is that this plane crash some how managed to cancel an event which i was supposed to attend.
It looks like the polish delegation will not attend. :(
Gordon Brown crashing in Germany would be quite drastically different..now at least. The British and Germans are meant to be friends, and what a cute couple Merkele and Gordon would make, don't you think? Russia however, has been volatile, interpreted as aggressive by many of it's neighbours. But that aside..
Some reports are surfacing that during the invasion of Georgia, the pilot who was flying the Polish president refused to land in Georgia at the time even though his commander in chief was telling him to. It might subsantiate the claims in the media about it happening again. I'm not that familiar with Lech Kaczyński though the little I did read about him when he was running for president gave me an image of a stern man. Some reports are suggesting as well that due to the fuel dumping, they had no other otion than to try to land at the Smolensk airport as they didnt' have enough fuel to get to any other airports.
But as almost always with important and/or famous people in fatal accidents/mysetrious deaths..conspiracy always seem to lurk. It'll be interesting to see what the black box reveals. As the media seem to have alot of theories we're all discussing, but most of it seems to be claims and counter claims of events.
The pilot may not have reset his altimeter...
It makes sense because to me, it appears that he was trying to find the runway via VFR.
Ooops.
I dont think the 154 was made for a Cat 3 landing, though.
Quote from: Walker on April 13, 2010, 08:28:26 AM
The age of the Tupolev is not an issue. Air Force One is an ancient plane too but the maintenance on that plane (and I'm sure on every government plane) is likely to be better than a lot of the planes you and I get to fly.
First off, there are 2 "air force ones" (VC 25s) which were modified 742Bs. And yes, they were delivered the same year as the TU 154 was built. They are among the most updated planes still today. Don't compare the Polish President's plane and AF1. They're not even close.
The two AF1s will be replaced during this decade by 747-8s, 787s, or 777s... They are still deciding. It would be bad practice for the USA to buy an A380 because it is foreign built.
Small note:
Every plane with the US President in is called Air Force One. This could also be a JetBlue Embraer 190.
Quote from: Curse on April 13, 2010, 03:58:55 PM
Small note:
Every plane with the US President in is called Air Force One. This could also be a JetBlue Embraer 190.
^True^ If Obama hops into a Cessna 152, guess what. It just became Airforce One...haha
Quote from: swiftus27 on April 13, 2010, 01:22:51 PM
The pilot may not have reset his altimeter...
I dont think the 154 was made for a Cat 3 landing, though.
the Tu-154 can be retrofitted/ as with any other plane (within limitations) to make it CATIII certifiable, and it very well might have been that the pilot didn't reset his altimeter as the altitude and air pressure in the 2 areas are quite different. This would cause the pilot to beleive that the runway is at "0" on say 29.92Hg, when it really is at "0" on 30.15Hg, which is a large difference in height.....(I just can't remember how much that is)
Quote from: swiftus27 on April 13, 2010, 01:22:51 PM
I dont think the 154 was made for a Cat 3 landing, though.
It was a NDB approach (= non precision) to an small/old military airfield in a marginal (but sufficient?) weather...
http://avherald.com/h?article=429ec5fa&opt=0
(may very well be an altimeter confusion as Russia uses meters and QFE, and
civilian traffic elsewhere in Europe use feet and QNH - no idea about Polish military procedures though)
Correct me if I am wrong but I heard that the pilot made several attempts to land in very adverse conditions and was even told by the control tower to land elsewhere.
If I am the pilot and I have the President on board ( and many other real VIPs), why would I take such risks? So many other safer options were on the table.
I cant help but think of other possible causes.
Quote from: Curse on April 13, 2010, 03:58:55 PM
Small note:
Every plane with the US President in is called Air Force One. This could also be a JetBlue Embraer 190.
Not correct at all.
Every AIR FORCE plane he flies in is AF1.
Nixon flew on a United flight and it was called Executive One.
On a Marine plane it is Marine 1 (like the Helicopter).
My fault, sorry!
After all, the airport they attempted landing at was the closest one to their destination. More often than not, people with power seem to think that the fact they do have power can change <insert whatever you want that is not possible to change> and/or make <insert whatever you wish want to happen> happen, against better judgement. I.e. the pilot saying they will have to divert but the president insisting that they HAVE TO LAND there because the meeting is on in 1 hour and they CAN'T BE LATE, diverting is NOT AN OPTION etc. etc. Of course, the captain shouldn't care about it but it may nonetheless affect his judgement.
I think this part of the wiki-information is a major contributing factor:
QuoteVIP passenger syndrome
Initial speculation was that the pilot tried to land repeatedly against the controller's advice because of pressure from the delegation, which was allegedly eager to attend the ceremony,[56] but later information made clear that only one landing approach was made.[18] According to the former commander of the 36th Special Aviation Regiment, Tomasz Pietrzak, the decision by the Russians to keep the airfield open, even though the weather conditions were too dangerous to receive planes safely, may have been a factor in the crash.[57]
In August 2008, a different pilot of Kaczyński's plane, Grzegorz Pietruczuk, was pressured by the president when he refused to land in Tbilisi during the South Ossetian war between Georgia and Russia.[58][59] During that incident, Pietruczuk was asked by the president's staff to change the flight plan and land in Tbilisi.[60] After consulting with the commander of his unit, Pietruczuk refused, justifying his decision by safety concerns. He was then visited in the cockpit by Kaczynski himself, who tried to convince him to change his mind. Kaczynski later told journalists that "the Polish officer should not be cowardly". Nevertheless, Pietruczuk held his ground and the plane landed in Azerbaijan as planned. A few weeks after this incident Pietruczuk was decorated by the defense minister for following correct procedures in this case and keeping the safety of his passengers utmost in his mind.[60] Pietruczuk continued to fly the president's plane after the incident, even after Kaczynski expressed unhappiness with his performance during the flight to Tbilisi.[61] Grzegorz Hołdanowicz, a leading Polish defence analyst, stated his belief that in Smolensk, the pilot Captain Arkadiusz Protasiuk would have been under pressure to land, despite advice from air traffic control to the contrary.[59]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2010_Polish_Air_Force_TU-154_crash
Quote from: Curse on April 14, 2010, 12:37:33 PM
My fault, sorry!
wait.....YOU caused the accident that killed the Polish President and all those delegates?!?!?! YOU LITTLE BI..... ;D
just kidding....but still, RIP to all of them and my sincerest condolences to all the polish people.