AirwaySim

General forums => Announcements => Topic started by: Sami on October 31, 2011, 04:45:52 PM

Title: Dawn of the Millennium #3
Post by: Sami on October 31, 2011, 04:45:52 PM
The 80s and 90s themed game world Dawn of the Millennium is about to end in a month, and as already traditional the next world of the same theme will commence shortly before that.

The estimated start time for next Dawn of the Millennium scenario is on Thursday November 10th, at approximately 19.00 UTC.
Title: Re: Dawn of the Millennium #3
Post by: minerva on October 31, 2011, 07:59:04 PM
Sami,
any sense when the first super-long gameworld will start?  I might give the next DOTM a miss if the one after that is planned to be the new format.
 
Title: Re: Dawn of the Millennium #3
Post by: JumboShrimp on October 31, 2011, 08:32:30 PM
How about increasng the basing limit to perhaps 150 in this new game world.  The increase from 70 to 100 was a good thing.  Increasing it further or eliminating it may be even better.
Title: Re: Dawn of the Millennium #3
Post by: ag321796 on October 31, 2011, 10:10:13 PM
I was expecting the Euro-America Challenge 2, I even bought more credits getting ready for a new game next week.
I was crazy to play a game with days of 20 minutes.
 :( :'(
Title: Re: Dawn of the Millennium #3
Post by: alexgv1 on November 01, 2011, 03:44:06 AM
How about increasng the basing limit to perhaps 150 in this new game world.  The increase from 70 to 100 was a good thing.  Increasing it further or eliminating it may be even better.

Good for you and SAC don't see who else
Title: Re: Dawn of the Millennium #3
Post by: vitongwangki on November 01, 2011, 03:50:53 AM
Good for you and SAC don't see who else
Exactly, small airlines will face more pressure than now.
Title: Re: Dawn of the Millennium #3
Post by: JumboShrimp on November 01, 2011, 04:08:21 AM
Good for you and SAC don't see who else

Good for me too, because I would at most open 2 bases with number of aircraft per base unlimited.
Title: Re: Dawn of the Millennium #3
Post by: Kadachiman on November 01, 2011, 05:55:20 AM
A super long game world with planes that never existed in real life.....How much fun would that be  ;D

Not all sitting and waiting for the release of the 'best' plane for a particular game world, only to see the production slots fill within hours.

Grabbing an order of '50*great plane model' thinking 'what a score' only to discover within 2 months that it has been 'slam dunked' by a super plane released by the new player in the market 'Bomacbus'...DOH

Not to sure how this fits in with a game sim concept though  :-[

Regards Darryl
Title: Re: Dawn of the Millennium #3
Post by: MM21 on November 01, 2011, 06:57:50 AM
Good for me too, because I would at most open 2 bases with number of aircraft per base unlimited.
Why don't you just ask Sami to remove the limitation so that the second base is totally belongs to you.
150 could mean many. What will be situation if you place 150 A350s there?
Title: Re: Dawn of the Millennium #3
Post by: JumboShrimp on November 01, 2011, 07:12:43 AM
Why don't you just ask Sami to remove the limitation so that the second base is totally belongs to you.
150 could mean many. What will be situation if you place 150 A350s there?

Well, removing the limit completely would be my first choice.

Right now, to max out on what's available, I have to go for very large aircraft and LH. 100 very large aircraft have more potential than any other aircraft.  As far as specifically 150 A350s, that's probably not the best strategy, since they arrive so late in the game, and the real limit on airlines trying to grow big is aircraft delivery rate.  I don't think you can get 150 A350s in the game.  And, of course, forget 4x150 at 4 bases...

I would like to try playing mostly US domestic airline in one of the future games, and this is where you can't get very far with 100 smaller aircraft...
Title: Re: Dawn of the Millennium #3
Post by: vitongwangki on November 01, 2011, 07:31:14 AM
Well, removing the limit completely would be my first choice.

Right now, to max out on what's available, I have to go for very large aircraft and LH. 100 very large aircraft have more potential than any other aircraft.  As far as specifically 150 A350s, that's probably not the best strategy, since they arrive so late in the game, and the real limit on airlines trying to grow big is aircraft delivery rate.  I don't think you can get 150 A350s in the game.  And, of course, forget 4x150 at 4 bases...

I would like to try playing mostly US domestic airline in one of the future games, and this is where you can't get very far with 100 smaller aircraft...
I guess the game is not only for you. As you said you can foresee the problem of the limit lifts up to 150 ::)
Title: Re: Dawn of the Millennium #3
Post by: Meicci on November 01, 2011, 07:51:24 AM
I guess the game is not only for you. As you said you can foresee the problem of the limit lifts up to 150 ::)

I don't see any bad points with that. It would just make the game more fun, because of better competition. It's boring to play, when you have +300 aircraft in your HQ, and then someone though guy joins in, but you know he will be limited to 100 aircraft.
Title: Re: Dawn of the Millennium #3
Post by: JumboShrimp on November 01, 2011, 08:07:09 AM
I guess the game is not only for you. As you said you can foresee the problem of the limit lifts up to 150 ::)

I don't recall saying that.  Just opposite.  All chages in 1.3 regarding bases were positive:
- removal of restriction at top 20 airports
- increase of limit of aircraft per base to 100
- reduction of cost of base overhead (I don't see 10s of airlines bankrupting in 1.3 because of base overhead as was the case in v1.2)

With all the changes having positive effect, I think it is justified to remove the last basing restriction...
Title: Re: Dawn of the Millennium #3
Post by: Peanutoil on November 01, 2011, 08:33:36 AM
I don't see any bad points with that. It would just make the game more fun, because of better competition. It's boring to play, when you have +300 aircraft in your HQ, and then someone though guy joins in, but you know he will be limited to 100 aircraft.

I hope you could consider those airlines based in small bases. AWS is not only the game with big bases that could house 300 planes.

I don't recall saying that.  Just opposite.  All chages in 1.3 regarding bases were positive:
- removal of restriction at top 20 airports
- increase of limit of aircraft per base to 100
- reduction of cost of base overhead (I don't see 10s of airlines bankrupting in 1.3 because of base overhead as was the case in v1.2)

With all the changes having positive effect, I think it is justified to remove the last basing restriction...

Again it may be good for those big airlines basing in airport >90%. But you need to consider those small airlines.
Title: Re: Dawn of the Millennium #3
Post by: Meicci on November 01, 2011, 08:41:21 AM
I hope you could consider those airlines based in small bases. AWS is not only the game with big bases that could house 300 planes.

I don't get your point. With small airports, things are already well. How would this even affect on those smaller airports?
Title: Re: Dawn of the Millennium #3
Post by: Peanutoil on November 01, 2011, 08:49:43 AM
I don't get your point. With small airports, things are already well. How would this even affect on those smaller airports?

I don't get your logic either, as you did not explain.

If the airport could house 150 planes. In the past, even two airlines open a new base on that airport, they could only serve ~90% airport. But now they can serve up to 200%. Provided that from the pat experience, airlines will usually open new base in airport with similar or small size to their first base, they are usually more competitive than the airline already based there. The effect is simple. I can't see why you didn't get it.
Title: Re: Dawn of the Millennium #3
Post by: slither360 on November 01, 2011, 10:19:18 AM
I agree with peanutoil - the main advantage of base restrictions is that another airline can't come in and dump 200% on every route of yours. If this is removed, airlines from more profitable bases can expand quickly and dump capacity on the small guys at the smaller, less profitable bases.
Title: Re: Dawn of the Millennium #3
Post by: Zombie Slayer on November 01, 2011, 01:03:51 PM
I agree with peanutoil - the main advantage of base restrictions is that another airline can't come in and dump 200% on every route of yours. If this is removed, airlines from more profitable bases can expand quickly and dump capacity on the small guys at the smaller, less profitable bases.

If anything, this will PROTECT the small guy at the small airport. With aircraft limitations at base airports, why would an airline go to a large airport with a large, strong incumbent carrier for a second/third/fourth base when a medium airport with little or weak competition can handle 100 frames? With unlimited or higher aircraft limits at bases, larger airports become more attractive. This further eliminates the "Fortress" effect of basing at larger airports and will keep strong/large airlines competing with airlines of similar size/strength while leaving the small guy at that medium airport to do his own thing.

Don
Title: Re: Dawn of the Millennium #3
Post by: vitongwangki on November 01, 2011, 03:52:41 PM
If anything, this will PROTECT the small guy at the small airport. With aircraft limitations at base airports, why would an airline go to a large airport with a large, strong incumbent carrier for a second/third/fourth base when a medium airport with little or weak competition can handle 100 frames? With unlimited or higher aircraft limits at bases, larger airports become more attractive. This further eliminates the "Fortress" effect of basing at larger airports and will keep strong/large airlines competing with airlines of similar size/strength while leaving the small guy at that medium airport to do his own thing.

Don
If you are calculating the number of planes you can dump to an airport, now every alliance, in theory can dump 200 planes already. And we can see the maximum number of fleet in each base is limited. Some large base, such as CDG, JFK, they can house 400 - 500, that's a huge number compared to 200. However, consider smaller base, like MAN, MUC, PHX, MCO; They can barely house 200 or so. Under the 100 aircraft limit, these bases can be easily fed up by any two players together, preventing others starting in these airport. If the limits is going to lift up to 150, I guess no more base would able to house new airlines after alliance domination.

On the other hand, that means if an alliance is going to attack anyone, that poor airline will have its LF drop to 50% or even lower because his routes is going to be 100% copied, which every big one could fall due to competition, no matter how good you manage your airline. Furthermore, this cause the alliance doing attacking strategy all over the world, because if they aren't attacking others, every moment they are facing risk of BK due to huge competition. I'd guess the situation is even worse than in MT5.
Title: Re: Dawn of the Millennium #3
Post by: JumboShrimp on November 01, 2011, 04:28:32 PM
I don't get your logic either, as you did not explain.

If the airport could house 150 planes. In the past, even two airlines open a new base on that airport, they could only serve ~90% airport. But now they can serve up to 200%. Provided that from the pat experience, airlines will usually open new base in airport with similar or small size to their first base, they are usually more competitive than the airline already based there. The effect is simple. I can't see why you didn't get it.

You clearly misunderstand the larger pircture (or pretend to).

The change to increase the limit of aircraft at a base would have no effect on smaller airlines in smaller airports.  The change is intended to add more competition to larger airlines at larger airports.

Smaller airlines at smaller airports already are subject to (what is for them) total competition with 100 aircraft.

For larger airlines at larger airports, 100 aircraft is no competition at all.
Title: Re: Dawn of the Millennium #3
Post by: vitongwangki on November 01, 2011, 06:00:12 PM
Smaller airlines at smaller airports already are subject to (what is for them) total competition with 100 aircraft.
And now, 50% more planes comes in. I don't know how to say they have no difference between.
Title: Re: Dawn of the Millennium #3
Post by: slither360 on November 01, 2011, 06:19:11 PM
In some ways, I agree with you JumboShrimp.

However, what you are not accounting for is the frequency bonus. Airlines at midsize airports which could hold on against 100 mainline planes will crash when fighting E190s, Q400s, and 737s tech stopping across the atlantic.
Title: Re: Dawn of the Millennium #3
Post by: JumboShrimp on November 01, 2011, 06:22:05 PM
And now, 50% more planes comes in. I don't know how to say they have no difference between.

If you have a small to mid size airport that can support less than 100 aircraft, ability to base more than 100 aircraft will make no difference.

So the argument that this change would affect smaller airlines at smaller airprots makes absolutely no sense.

This change would affect large airports and players with large number of aircraft based at these large airports.
Title: Re: Dawn of the Millennium #3
Post by: slither360 on November 01, 2011, 06:24:40 PM
If you have a small to mid size airport that can support less than 100 aircraft, ability to base more than 100 aircraft will make no difference.

So the argument that this change would affect smaller airlines at smaller airprots makes absolutely no sense.

This change would affect large airports and players with large number of aircraft based at these large airports.

Lets say hypothetical airport A can support 100 mainline jets.

The airline HQed there can stay alive against 100 mainline jets from another airline based there.

They cannot stay alive against 200 RJs and Props.

That is the issue I am worried about.

Of course, there is a good chance that I'm completely wrong.  :-\
Title: Re: Dawn of the Millennium #3
Post by: vitongwangki on November 01, 2011, 06:25:42 PM
If you have a small to mid size airport that can support less than 100 aircraft, ability to base more than 100 aircraft will make no difference.

So the argument that this change would affect smaller airlines at smaller airprots makes absolutely no sense.

This change would affect large airports and players with large number of aircraft based at these large airports.
You assume smaller airlines at smaller airports has only 100 planes to house, but this assumption is completely wrong in airports can house from 100 - 300. If you can use <100 as the argument, then the limitation can lift upto 400. I am not going to twist your word but logically, this makes no difference from your argument either.
Title: Re: Dawn of the Millennium #3
Post by: JumboShrimp on November 01, 2011, 06:30:36 PM
However, what you are not accounting for is the frequency bonus. Airlines at midsize airports which could hold on against 100 mainline planes will crash when fighting E190s, Q400s, and 737s tech stopping across the atlantic.

That's a separate issue.  The frequency bonus needs to be addressed, and the best proposal on that is Jona's proposal, in my opinion.

Jona's proposal is that the frequency bonus be changed so that "appropriate" aircraft size for a given distance could not be overwhelemd by smaller, less appropriate aircraft for the distance.  He has different distances and sizes, but if you take just one example, say > 3000nm, the appropriate aircraft would be a 300 seat aircraft.  So if airline A flies 1x300 and airline B flies 2x150, airline B would get credit for only 1x300, not 2x150.
Title: Re: Dawn of the Millennium #3
Post by: JumboShrimp on November 01, 2011, 06:38:08 PM
Lets say hypothetical airport A can support 100 mainline jets.

The airline HQed there can stay alive against 100 mainline jets from another airline based there.

They cannot stay alive against 200 RJs and Props.

That is the issue I am worried about.

Of course, there is a good chance that I'm completely wrong.  :-\

The same issue would be the case if both airlines are HQd at the same airport.  So it is not basing issue, it is frequency issue.
Title: Re: Dawn of the Millennium #3
Post by: slither360 on November 01, 2011, 06:43:05 PM
That's a separate issue.  The frequency bonus needs to be addressed, and the best proposal on that is Jona's proposal, in my opinion.

Jona's proposal is that the frequency bonus be changed so that "appropriate" aircraft size for a given distance could not be overwhelemd by smaller, less appropriate aircraft for the distance.  He has different distances and sizes, but if you take just one example, say > 3000nm, the appropriate aircraft would be a 300 seat aircraft.  So if airline A flies 1x300 and airline B flies 2x150, airline B would get credit for only 1x300, not 2x150.

I like Sanabas' proposal better, but I understand and would welcome Jona's as well...

Regardless, I think everyone agrees that frequency needs to be fixed. However, until frequency does get fixed, I don't know if I should support changes that make it easier to dump frequency on routes. Allowing more planes at a base certainly would enable more frequency dumping, which is why I'm not too excited about the prospect.

That said, once frequency and other competition related problems (mostly having to do with pax allocation) get fixed, I would happily support unlimited aircraft at bases.
Title: Re: Dawn of the Millennium #3
Post by: slither360 on November 01, 2011, 06:46:44 PM
The same issue would be the case if both airlines are HQd at the same airport.  So it is not basing issue, it is frequency issue.

This is true.

But if another airline was HQed at the airport, they can't dump many planes at once on routes. I can tell you that if I was HQed at Airport A, I would notice very quickly if my competitor started using smaller, frequency driven planes. By the time my competitor would have enough planes to gain significant marketshare, I would have the opportunity to make my own moves to try to counter this move.

Compared to an airline based at another big airport, shows up, dumps 150 E-jets onto my base, and I'm dead before I even start to counter.

(I realize this example was extreme)
Title: Re: Dawn of the Millennium #3
Post by: JumboShrimp on November 01, 2011, 06:47:26 PM
You assume smaller airlines at smaller airports has only 100 planes to house, but this assumption is completely wrong in airports can house from 100 - 300. If you can use <100 as the argument, then the limitation can lift upto 400. I am not going to twist your word but logically, this makes no difference from your argument either.

Well, that's my point.  Any increase in basing limit (or removing the limits completely) would not affect airports that support < 100 aircraft.  Only airports that support > 100 aircraft.

This would level the playing field between small and large airlines  (and airports).  The large airlines are "protected" by the 100 aircraft limit, small airlines don't have any protection.  Removing the limit would make both airines subject to competition.
Title: Re: Dawn of the Millennium #3
Post by: Monk Xion on November 01, 2011, 06:55:22 PM
Well, that's my point.  Any increase in basing limit (or removing the limits completely) would not affect airports that support < 100 aircraft.  Only airports that support > 100 aircraft.

This would level the playing field between small and large airlines  (and airports).  The large airlines are "protected" by the 100 aircraft limit, small airlines don't have any protection.  Removing the limit would make both airines subject to competition.

I disagree. We already have had a lot of changes that have made the game harder to play for the little guy IMO. I have always tried making a smaller airline and always have a bigger one crush me.

Let just all have fun and enjoy the game with out making it super complicated :)
Title: Re: Dawn of the Millennium #3
Post by: Sami on November 01, 2011, 08:12:39 PM
Guys, this is completely the wrong forum and thread for this discussion. So far no changes are planned in v.1.3 games to bases.
Title: Re: Dawn of the Millennium #3
Post by: Miller11 on November 05, 2011, 06:05:20 PM
You clearly misunderstand the larger pircture (or pretend to).

The change to increase the limit of aircraft at a base would have no effect on smaller airlines in smaller airports.  The change is intended to add more competition to larger airlines at larger airports.

Smaller airlines at smaller airports already are subject to (what is for them) total competition with 100 aircraft.

For larger airlines at larger airports, 100 aircraft is no competition at all.

+1 also same at medium size too
Title: Re: Dawn of the Millennium #3
Post by: wtdawg on November 13, 2011, 03:27:45 PM
Guys, this is completely the wrong forum and thread for this discussion. So far no changes are planned in v.1.3 games to bases.
In all of that Sami, you missed the question about timing of the super long game.  I'm interested too!