Hey! So I'm sort of new to the game and have only ever played beginners worlds, so maybe that's why?
I've read through a lot of tutorials and the guide itself, and two things everyone says is: don't rent new and don't have more than 3 fleet groups.
This is my second run and I've been trying to uphold myself to that, I have 2 major fleet groups, and 3 now that I'm replacing old 737-400s for A320neos (and yes I understand my mistake I should have chosen the A320 family to begin with or a more recent 737).
But consistently I see the top ranked players are renting new aircraft (some have fleets consistent fully of new rented aircraft) and they have WAY more than 3 fleet groups, one actually has 5, and all consisted of new aircraft.
Maybe the beginner's world isn't as strict? Maybe I made some huge mistake? But I'm really starting to wonder what I did wrong xD, now that C checks start coming in some of my aircraft are becoming quite expensive to handle.
In addition, I always see people flying default factory configurations, while I've been changing to a better more comfort style seating on my long haul A330s, yet this doesn't seem to influence them, but supposedly it does?
I'm just a little confused over these three issues (the leasing new, the fleet groups and the seating configurations) and was wondering if any more experienced players wouldn't mind helping me understand a bit more, so I may improve my gamestyle as well.
Quote from: Grandmen123 on March 18, 2019, 10:27:54 PM
Hey! So I'm sort of new to the game and have only ever played beginners worlds, so maybe that's why?
I've read through a lot of tutorials and the guide itself, and two things everyone says is: don't rent new and don't have more than 3 fleet groups.
This is my second run and I've been trying to uphold myself to that, I have 2 major fleet groups, and 3 now that I'm replacing old 737-400s for A320neos (and yes I understand my mistake I should have chosen the A320 family to begin with or a more recent 737).
But consistently I see the top ranked players are renting new aircraft (some have fleets consistent fully of new rented aircraft) and they have WAY more than 3 fleet groups, one actually has 5, and all consisted of new aircraft.
Maybe the beginner's world isn't as strict? Maybe I made some huge mistake? But I'm really starting to wonder what I did wrong xD, now that C checks start coming in some of my aircraft are becoming quite expensive to handle.
In addition, I always see people flying default factory configurations, while I've been changing to a better more comfort style seating on my long haul A330s, yet this doesn't seem to influence them, but supposedly it does?
I'm just a little confused over these three issues (the leasing new, the fleet groups and the seating configurations) and was wondering if any more experienced players wouldn't mind helping me understand a bit more, so I may improve my gamestyle as well.
The first two can mostly be explained by being in a Beginner's World. In BW1, people are actually LEASING new IL-96s. Something you would never see an experienced player doing in a regular GW. As for fleet groups, I'm always puzzled by airlines that run a myriad of fleet groups- at one point I counted an airline with 23. But this, again, was in a BW, and it wouldn't fly (heh) in a regular game world. This is often the death knell of BW airlines, as they begin with a medium haul fleet like MD-80 or 737, and then expand into a number of small prop planes or regional jets, or supersize up to A340 or B777. I suspect this is either because 1) there is a really cheap plane up for lease on the UM in another fleet group or 2) they want to operate a novelty fleet type like the A380 or B747.
As for seating configs, keep it to Standard. I made the mistake of starting with Premium seating in GW3 and built my network around 124 seat MD-90s- when I converted back to standard, my LF's dropped massively and I had to adjust. Factory default configs are not always the best- personally I find them a bit too bullish on F seating and bearish on C seating.
Hope some of this helps,
rntair
Hi Grandmen,
First of all you should know that the beginner's world has very favorable economics so people can actually play the "sandbox mode". In a real game world things would be more strict/punishing.
The following tips are true for actual game worlds and may not be valid for your beginner's game world.
You might survive 4, 5, or 6 fleet types in a real game world. Especially in the beginning (when planes are scarce and you want to expand quickly) you often don't have much of a choice but to fly "what's available". You should, however, try to streamline your fleet as soon as possible so you can do the necessary fleet transitions later on.
Same applies for "leasing new aircraft". In the beginning of a game world, there are just no planes on the used market. And you have no capital to buy aircraft either. So you don't have any other option but to lease new aircraft. As time goes on (and hopefully as your wallet gets thicker) you should be buying aircraft instead of leasing them. It just saves you a lot of money. In the later game stages, nobody will have leased planes anymore.
Seating configuration: It really depends on your demand on your routes. Often, default config will work great. If you have business demand on most routes, you should get some business seats. Standard seats will do the trick. You can use High Density seats on short haul without any issue. Premium seats don't seem to have much of an effect.
EDIT:
QuoteIn BW1, people are actually LEASING new IL-96s. Something you would never see an experienced player doing in a regular GW.
True. I bought 100 IL-96-400M last GW2 and this was already quite an adventure. Leasing them, I don't even want to think about that! But good planes actually (at least the cargo version).
A few more things.
The penalty for flying more than 3 fleet types goes higher as you grow. At 200 planes in total, adding a 4th fleet might indeed be interesting as the better coverage of the demand might indeed offset the penalty. At 400 a/c, it begins to be really painful. From 600 a/c onwards, don't think about it anymore.
Rule of thumb is that you'll lose 2 points of margin for each 100 planes you have.
Then, from 4 to 6 fleet there's almost no increase of the penalty. From 6 to 7, another, big one.
That's the reason most players with huge airlines usually have their renewal done in one go: either they prepare the new schedules in advance, or they'll choose compatible fleet types (similar speed and TaT).
Quote from: rntair on March 18, 2019, 10:36:21 PM
The first two can mostly be explained by being in a Beginner's World. In BW1, people are actually LEASING new IL-96s.(.../...)
I did this in a GW3, and survived to tell the story. Actually, "soviet steel" (which inmy book excludes SSJs & a148s, but include some low-life-expectancy western models as the early comets) are better leased new, and released before the first D-Check.
Of course, I had favorable conditions(i.e. playing in Algeria, without any opposition, with limited crew costs, with enough LH demand, and before fuel prices went around 1000$). I flew 35 of them for 7 years, before replacing them by owned 330s. And their performances were satisfactory. Said otherwise, had I done the same thing in CDG, with all the opposition there, I'd have suffered a lot.
There are plenty of fringe tactics that may work in the hands of an experimented player who knows what he's doing, but that would be deadly in the hands of a beginner. Going beyond 3 fleet groups is another one. The penalty is a mere few points of margin and might be tempting to cover more destinations, but in a real game world, when there is a bloodbath at a very demanded airport, and everyone's margin is below 7%, 4points of margin is the long-term difference between life & death.
Quote from: Tha_Ape on March 18, 2019, 11:10:08 PM
(.../...)
That's the reason most players with huge airlines usually have their renewal done in one go: either they prepare the new schedules in advance, or they'll choose compatible fleet types (similar speed and TaT).
Or they limit themselves to 2 fleet groups plus one single conversion at a time. Depending on the situation, I'm going one or the other.
My main reason to play the beginners world is precisely because it's easier.
I want to play more casually at first, but I've been trying to improve myself. So it would be manageable for me in BW to lease new and have 4 fleet groups?
I'm playing in Sydney and have basically dominated the domestic market from there, anyone coming into Sydney would face high competition as I actually studied every route my 737s could fly to (and have more than or around their total capacity) and opened routes.
Thank you for the previous answers btw, I do have a question in what regards to the way of running long haul operations.
I chose the A330 as my medium-long haul aircraft, my A330-300s have all been super profitable, but my A330-200s arent, they have all been reconfigured to a 152Y20C6C and 128Y20C6Y respectively (due to the high comfort standards), to pick routes I basically picked the ones that could fill the plane, this might be a bit newbish but I thought it would work, for the A333s it did for the A332s it didn't the only routes they are actually being profitable on are the ones where demand is well above 100% of the capacity.
Any tips on how to take better advantage of this these planes?
Quote from: gazzz0x2z on March 19, 2019, 09:06:22 AM
Or they limit themselves to 2 fleet groups plus one single conversion at a time. Depending on the situation, I'm going one or the other.
Or they stack up 150 planes to move the schedules in 1 night. I hate those nights.
That's more effort than I care to put into this game!
QuoteI'm playing in Sydney and have basically dominated the domestic market from there, anyone coming into Sydney would face high competition as I actually studied every route my 737s could fly to (and have more than or around their total capacity) and opened routes.
This can be dangerous, though. It will work in Sydney since distances are very long. However, in Europe, Asia or the US you could be attacked with smaller planes. Let's assume you have a 300 demand route and you have 2 flights with 150 passengers each (= demand is filled). Suddenly a competitor comes along and has 2 flights with 75 seats each. There are 4 flights with a total of 450 seats. What happens now is that the game will do this calculation: 300 demand / 4 flights = 75 passengers per flight. So while your 150-seat aircraft is half empty, your competitor's planes will be full. Of course this is very simplified as there are other factors such as route image, company image, departure/arrival times, seat configuration etc...but you get the point.
In other words: Just because the demand is filled doesn't mean someone could join you on this route.
André is right.
Here's a picture to scare you a little - but with "scaring" meant as a useful thing to learn how to react.
Quote from: Grandmen123 on March 19, 2019, 04:20:09 PM
I chose the A330 as my medium-long haul aircraft, my A330-300s have all been super profitable, but my A330-200s arent, they have all been reconfigured to a 152Y20C6C and 128Y20C6Y respectively (due to the high comfort standards), to pick routes I basically picked the ones that could fill the plane, this might be a bit newbish but I thought it would work, for the A333s it did for the A332s it didn't the only routes they are actually being profitable on are the ones where demand is well above 100% of the capacity.
Any tips on how to take better advantage of this these planes?
A330 is a terrible aircraft choice for Sydney in the first place because it has too little range to reach some of the most profitable destinations. Australia is one of the very few markets where ultra long haul can be profitable even in real world environment. A330s limit you basically to Singapore, Hong Kong, Bangkok and Tokyo because while there are family members of the A340 that can get you further afield, they have terrible economics.
Meanwhile the bigger problem is your seating configuration. Premium seats have zero benefit in this game. They're a fluff piece that ruins your yields. Pick standard seats for all classes. AWS passengers don't care for flat bed seats, unlike real world passengers. You should be getting twice that amount of passengers in with that low of a premium split. 4F21J279Y in an A332 or 4F28J306Y in an A333.
Quote from: Grandmen123 on March 19, 2019, 04:20:09 PM
I'm playing in Sydney and have basically dominated the domestic market from there, anyone coming into Sydney would face high competition as I actually studied every route my 737s could fly to (and have more than or around their total capacity) and opened routes.
Someone in Sydney is excessively easy to attack because of the huge trunk triangle routes. A competitor can grow insanely quick due to early profits on those routes.
Quote from: Grandmen123 on March 19, 2019, 04:20:09 PM
(.../...)
I'm playing in Sydney and have basically dominated the domestic market from there, anyone coming into Sydney would face high competition as I actually studied every route my 737s could fly to (and have more than or around their total capacity) and opened route(.../...)
Screenshot from GW2. I had covered 100% of VVTS-RJFF demand with a constellation. It didn't deter others from attacking me. And as they both seem to be price warring each other, my load factor is below 40%. That's real AWS life. I don't complain, I did it numerous times.
It's not exactly the same situation as the one described by André, because all birds flying there are similar-sized(early larges, 65-100 seats). But the result is similar, noone is doing money there, and everyone is waiting for someone else to bankrupt.
Quote from: Infinity on March 20, 2019, 02:58:07 AM
A330 is a terrible aircraft choice for Sydney in the first place because it has too little range to reach some of the most profitable destinations. Australia is one of the very few markets where ultra long haul can be profitable even in real world environment. A330s limit you basically to Singapore, Hong Kong, Bangkok and Tokyo because while there are family members of the A340 that can get you further afield, they have terrible economics.
Meanwhile the bigger problem is your seating configuration. Premium seats have zero benefit in this game. They're a fluff piece that ruins your yields. Pick standard seats for all classes. AWS passengers don't care for flat bed seats, unlike real world passengers. You should be getting twice that amount of passengers in with that low of a premium split. 4F21J279Y in an A332 or 4F28J306Y in an A333.
Someone in Sydney is excessively easy to attack because of the huge trunk triangle routes. A competitor can grow insanely quick due to early profits on those routes.
Sorry this might be another newbish question but what exactly are trunk triangle routes?
Quote from: gazzz0x2z on March 20, 2019, 07:55:56 AM
Screenshot from GW2. I had covered 100% of VVTS-RJFF demand with a constellation. It didn't deter others from attacking me. And as they both seem to be price warring each other, my load factor is below 40%. That's real AWS life. I don't complain, I did it numerous times.
It's not exactly the same situation as the one described by André, because all birds flying there are similar-sized(early larges, 65-100 seats). But the result is similar, no one is doing money there, and everyone is waiting for someone else to bankrupt.
So how does one go about making sure to cover all routes and trying to snuff competition? If the passengers are split evenly amongst the airlines, how can one outmaneuver the other? Pricing? Seat Configurations? Airline Rating?
Quote from: Grandmen123 on March 20, 2019, 06:03:02 PM
So how does one go about making sure to cover all routes and trying to snuff competition? If the passengers are split evenly amongst the airlines, how can one outmaneuver the other? Pricing? Seat Configurations? Airline Rating?
There is only way - frequency. Say there is 2000 demand and there are 20xAirbus A321 (say 200 seats for easy math) covering the route. 2000/20 planes means each plane gets 100 pax. 200 seats per plane, so 50% load factor.
The only way to attack this is frequency, so put 20x daily Embrear's on the route (50 seats each for easy math). Still 2000 demand, but now there are 40 aircraft daily. 2000/40 = 50 pax/plane. So the 200 seat Airbus's are now 25% LF, and your 50 seat EMBs are 100% LF!
In the end if they are established and making money they can by and large ignore you as you do the monkey business above. You're like a Jack Russell yipping and yapping and dancing around. They're the big dog and will snooze on. The other way is wear them out. Things like seat, price etc swing LF by a few percent up and down, but no more than that.
Lets say you're both flying an A321 on the route, but player A has 100CI, 30% off fares, lux seating,brand new planes. Player B has 10CI, default fares, std seating, 20 year old Airbus's. I'd expect A to have about 54% of the route and player B 46%.
The above works on LH as well. If they're flying a 747, fly 2x787s. Same for cargo. If there's an MD11F, fly 2x757PFs
Simon
Quote from: groundbum2 on March 20, 2019, 06:12:42 PM
There is only way - frequency. Say there is 2000 demand and there are 20xAirbus A321 (say 200 seats for easy math) covering the route. 2000/20 planes means each plane gets 100 pax. 200 seats per plane, so 50% load factor.
The only way to attack this is frequency, so put 20x daily Embrear's on the route (50 seats each for easy math). Still 2000 demand, but now there are 40 aircraft daily. 2000/40 = 50 pax/plane. So the 200 seat Airbus's are now 25% LF, and your 50 seat EMBs are 100% LF!
In the end if they are established and making money they can by and large ignore you as you do the monkey business above. You're like a Jack Russell yipping and yapping and dancing around. They're the big dog and will snooze on. The other way is wear them out. Things like seat, price etc swing LF by a few percent up and down, but no more than that.
Lets say you're both flying an A321 on the route, but player A has 100CI, 30% off fares, lux seating,brand new planes. Player B has 10CI, default fares, std seating, 20 year old Airbus's. I'd expect A to have about 54% of the route and player B 46%.
The above works on LH as well. If they're flying a 747, fly 2x787s. Same for cargo. If there's an MD11F, fly 2x757PFs
Simon
and that wonderfully illustrates why i am requesting price sensitve customers; so that not only trip costs matter!
What Simon said, but not only. You can also simply beat the margin of your opposition by having a more efficient airline. Scheduling, seat configuration, and planes management are areas where one can increase revenue or decrease expenses.
Once, I even did dominate a player who was flying Q400s unefficiently just by spamming 733 everywhere in this airport. My scheduling was more efficient, my seating was better choosen, my pricing was adapted, and I was covering some lost areas he was not covering. Frequency helps, of course, but it's far from being the only way to dominate.
to answer an earlier question, in Australia the trunk triangle route is SYD-MEL-BNE ... in AWS you couldn't do the triangle in one direction with an aircraft, you'd need to go in/out from one base...
Simon
Firstly, thank you all for the answers
I just have two last questions, someone mentioned Ultra Long Haul working from Sydney, but my issue there are planes, lets imagine I wanted to run a LHR route, which I did last time, I needed a 777-200LR with a specific engine to do so, or a 777-8X with a different from default configuration to do so or are there any other planes that can make the direct flight?
The same question goes for stuff like JFK or major European Airports (although some would be reachable with other planes if I configured them well, but to keep fleet commonality I could only pick one)
The second has to do with bases, how does one go about it? Like how do I know me opening a base in Melbourne, for example, is worth it? I can study all the route demands from Melbourne but then again, if my opponent (which is already established there, even if at a lower score then me) could easily outmaneuver me. What's the best strategy?
The A380 does the job. The A340-500HGW as well. Just got to pick the right one depending on the demand and competition.
But, most of all, pick the plane that suits the majority of your demand, not only 2 or 3 prestigious routes.
Last GW#2, some alliance fellow based in Australia used a combination of 737, A330 and A380. Did wonders, always sticking to the top 20. Because above 8000nm he was unopposed and the demand was high enough, his A380 were all filled up to the brim, printing loads of cash.
But do your fleet structure, cashflow, profile, etc. allow some space to such an expensive bird? You need to check. But usually, ULH is the last area in which one expands.
Now, about your potential new base. It depends how well your competitors is doing. What do you call "well established"? covering all the demand doesn't mean he's doing well. How much cash does he have in reserve? What is his cashflow? His margin? What kind of fleet does he operate? How well done is his scheduling?
The basic idea would be to go first on the routes where there's clearly money to make: either he serves it with a bird you can undercut (you beat him with frequency) or he doesn't covers the whole demand, or you go for routes he does not fly yet (too far away for his fleet).
You'll always have more chance, at least initially, on thicker routes. But spread your apples, check what counter-attack he might put up, etc.
Quote from: Grandmen123 on March 21, 2019, 09:07:41 PM
Firstly, thank you all for the answers
I just have two last questions, someone mentioned Ultra Long Haul working from Sydney, but my issue there are planes, lets imagine I wanted to run a LHR route, which I did last time, I needed a 777-200LR with a specific engine to do so, or a 777-8X with a different from default configuration to do so or are there any other planes that can make the direct flight?
The 77L with increased weight is the only sensible choice for ultra long haul from Australia. All other options (A380 or A340-500HGW) have limitations with range/payload on certain routes and also have worse economics, so they turn into a bomb if a competitor moves in with 77L.
Quote from: groundbum2 on March 20, 2019, 06:12:42 PM
There is only way - frequency. Say there is 2000 demand and there are 20xAirbus A321 (say 200 seats for easy math) covering the route. 2000/20 planes means each plane gets 100 pax. 200 seats per plane, so 50% load factor.
The only way to attack this is frequency, so put 20x daily Embrear's on the route (50 seats each for easy math). Still 2000 demand, but now there are 40 aircraft daily. 2000/40 = 50 pax/plane. So the 200 seat Airbus's are now 25% LF, and your 50 seat EMBs are 100% LF!
In the end if they are established and making money they can by and large ignore you as you do the monkey business above. You're like a Jack Russell yipping and yapping and dancing around. They're the big dog and will snooze on. The other way is wear them out. Things like seat, price etc swing LF by a few percent up and down, but no more than that.
Lets say you're both flying an A321 on the route, but player A has 100CI, 30% off fares, lux seating,brand new planes. Player B has 10CI, default fares, std seating, 20 year old Airbus's. I'd expect A to have about 54% of the route and player B 46%.
The above works on LH as well. If they're flying a 747, fly 2x787s. Same for cargo. If there's an MD11F, fly 2x757PFs
Simon
Agreed.
I'd caution the fledgling to be mindful of:
1. Whether or not the CEO he/she is attempting to crush has solid earnings elsewhere.
2. Comparative margins after employing such a tactic.
3. Related to 2., your lower seat revenue-generating capacity in presumably a high-cost market (using the example) where handling fees, on a percentage increase basis are smaller for the larger aircraft than the smaller aircraft. (Thanks, Fisher970, for helping me prove that!)
However, using Simon's example, but not focusing on trying to squash a CEO flying big birds, 10 E-120s would easily keep you out of bunching those little birds up too much and eating those gluttonous employee salaries.
These are my observations, only. Not an AWS law. Keeps the little birds from hurting me in the long-term as costs begin to exceed the little birds ability to keep pace with limited seating and lower ability to increase prices consistent with rising costs...me thinks.
It's one of the reasons the Airbus's 3XX family have done so well in real life and in AWS. You can go from the teeny A318 105 seats to the 210 seat A321 all in same fleet, and spread over many years of productive life! And with cargo conversions later on. So one fleet does what it could take 2 fleets to do. The only downside is the A3xx family trip "too small" over the Atlantic whereas the 757 doesn't. The 737 family is a mess with 3 fleet types, 737-1/2, then 737-5/6 (?) then 737-7 onwards. Ick!
I'll often use the A321 as the main trunkliner, then get a bunch of A318 and spam a short route, say LAX-SFO, 2500 pax, 250nm with A318s every 30 minutes.
S
Quote from: groundbum2 on March 23, 2019, 10:35:56 AM
It's one of the reasons the Airbus's 3XX family have done so well in real life and in AWS. You can go from the teeny A318 105 seats to the 210 seat A321 all in same fleet, and spread over many years of productive life! And with cargo conversions later on. So one fleet does what it could take 2 fleets to do. The only downside is the A3xx family trip "too small" over the Atlantic whereas the 757 doesn't. The 737 family is a mess with 3 fleet types, 737-1/2, then 737-5/6 (?) then 737-7 onwards. Ick!
I'll often use the A321 as the main trunkliner, then get a bunch of A318 and spam a short route, say LAX-SFO, 2500 pax, 250nm with A318s every 30 minutes.
S
321 TATL won't be a problem anymore (next to impossible w/o tech stop on westbound) with the new ESAD range calculations.
318's don't really have much advantage over the 319, also....except "better LF's", but this is subjective.
Quote from: Zobelle on March 23, 2019, 11:19:11 AM
321 TATL won't be a problem anymore (next to impossible w/o tech stop on westbound) with the new ESAD range calculations.
Maybe if the 321LR makes it to the game... ::)
Quote from: Tha_Ape on March 23, 2019, 12:32:56 PM
Maybe if the 321LR makes it to the game... ::)
Big IF. Lol. Even then the "too small" boot to the behind will still get you on most routes worth flying — Would be nice to get rid of that since there will now be little incentive to use the types for that purpose.
Just wanted to quickly thank everyone again for all the answers, hopefully I can implement some of what I've learned into the game now.