AirwaySim

Miscellaneous => Off-topic forum => Topic started by: Pilot Oatmeal on March 08, 2011, 09:33:05 PM

Title: Pilot Training
Post by: Pilot Oatmeal on March 08, 2011, 09:33:05 PM
Hello There,

I am just wondering if there are any pilots out there that might know a way of reducing pilot training fees.  I am a University student so my finances are all over at the moment.  I have my PPL and a Glider Pilots Licence.  So hopefully my prices will be reduced?  I am about to start my ATPL at OAA (oxford air academy) and its turning out to be a bit more expensive then i'd like.

Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated :)

Thank You,

Jordan O
Title: Re: Pilot Training
Post by: swiftus27 on March 08, 2011, 10:18:54 PM
you may want to tell people where you are in the world.  That way we can help.  I do know in Europe, pilot's licenses are priced WAY too high.  My CFI just passed her ATP.
Title: Re: Pilot Training
Post by: Pilot Oatmeal on March 08, 2011, 10:27:01 PM
Im in the UK.  I know they are, but the career outlook looks good right now, and I love flying haha :)
Title: Re: Pilot Training
Post by: GEnx on March 09, 2011, 03:48:11 PM
The last thing you should do is to go modular (that is, passing all licenses one by one yourself). This is cheaper yet much more risky for the airline business. The flight school you attend decides everything in your career as a pilot. In your case, the Oxford Aviation Academy is a great choice as it has proven to employ its cadets at numerous reputable airlines. Sure, it is incredibly expensive, but pilots in Europe are paid relatively well. Another thing you should consider, though, is cadetships. For example, Air France and Lufthansa offer great cadetship programs where you are both sponsored and offered job certainty. To illustrate my point: for the Lufthansa Verkehrsfliegerschule you'll pay only 50000,- as opposed to the 150000,- you'll pay for other flight academies, and your starting salary will be 5000,- a month. Sponsorships do, however, have extremely rigorous selection processes (which is fairly obvious :)).

For me, I am admitted to the KLM Flight Academy. Unfortunately KLM does not sponsor me so I will have to pay some 170000,- in total. Luckily the job opportunities for KLM Flight Academy cadets are quite good, so I think I'll be fine.
Title: Re: Pilot Training
Post by: Pilot Oatmeal on March 09, 2011, 06:42:57 PM
wow  thats quite expensive over in Europe, my training is looking to be about 60000 british pounds ...around 70000 in euros... I have heard about these sponsorships but i doubt i'll make the selection process, im currently doing my degree in Air Transport operations I wonder if they'll accept that?  Are there any loans out there to help me pay for this???
Title: Re: Pilot Training
Post by: SuperVC10 on March 09, 2011, 07:23:20 PM
Hi,

I suggest you take a look here:

http://www.pprune.org/professional-pilot-training-includes-ground-studies-14/ (http://www.pprune.org/professional-pilot-training-includes-ground-studies-14/)

There is a wealth of information on that site which should answer (and raise) quite a few questions. They are a reasonably friendly bunch and should help you if you ask.

Good Luck,

Ben
Title: Re: Pilot Training
Post by: Pilot Oatmeal on March 09, 2011, 07:35:07 PM
I've been there alot its a great website, thank you for all your suggestions :)
Title: Re: Pilot Training
Post by: Pilot Oatmeal on March 09, 2011, 07:46:44 PM
Im starting to think whether its worth all this hassle of loans and no real promise of jobs.  I love aviation and I've wanted to be a pilot since I was four years old in my dads Citation but now im wondering if its all worth it.  UGH :'(
Title: Re: Pilot Training
Post by: GEnx on March 09, 2011, 08:07:01 PM
To be honest, now is indeed not really the time to become a pilot. There are frankly no jobs, anywhere in Europe (save for the few low cost carriers where you'll have to pay your own typeratings = add 30000,- to your already growing debt).

If you really, really want to go for this job, please take a look at the opportunities in the Middle East and Asia. Etihad offered cadetship programs in the past, Cathay Pacific offers them now (extremely difficult, though) and Qatar Airways is growing like crazy. There are opportunities, however you can't expect to be employed by, for example, British Airways or Virgin Atlantic anymore. You will seriously have to commit yourself. Being a pilot is not as simple as having a job.. It's a lifestyle.

As for loans, if you follow a full-time ATPL course at OAA, I'm sure there's a bank who will provide you the loan. You could always call OAA about this (believe me, everyone has the same problem as you).
Title: Re: Pilot Training
Post by: Pilot Oatmeal on March 09, 2011, 08:11:46 PM
I am a UK/US citizen so training in america would be no problem i know its cheaper, but are there jobs there?

Quinoky are you a commercial pilot?
Title: Re: Pilot Training
Post by: GEnx on March 09, 2011, 08:18:01 PM
Not yet, my flight training commences in 2013. I have flown a lot with a friend of mine who's a captain for KLM on the MD-11 (landing JFK (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l5AkUA8uaGk)).

Flight training is indeed a lot cheaper in the US, although you should keep the following in mind:

1. You won't be able to fly for European carriers with American pilot licenses (you can convert, but that's costly.. don't know the exact price by heart unfortunately), and
2. Pilot wages in the United States are way lower than those in Europe.
Title: Re: Pilot Training
Post by: Pilot Oatmeal on March 09, 2011, 08:24:59 PM
Okay wow congratulations.  I hope to be in his shoes one day.

Okay, well what do you think about this... my dad owns a citation CJ1 and he told me i could to the type rating for it on the plane, hows the corporate flying world? does that have jobs in it?
Title: Re: Pilot Training
Post by: GEnx on March 09, 2011, 08:30:37 PM
I would say only in the private jet world, here in the Netherlands that is NetJets (http://www.netjets.com/) for example.. From what I have heard is that it does pay fairly well, however these companies are not doing very well. My neighbor flew for NetJets once but unfortunately he was the victim of redundancies. It is a poor, poor time for the airline industry indeed.

I have no idea which airlines are similar to NetJets in Europe, but from what I have heard is that you need a decent amount of flight experience before you can apply. It's not exactly the industry you want to be placing your bets on, I think.

Edit: there are a lot more experts on pprune in this field, so maybe they could provide you with more information on this. :)
Title: Re: Pilot Training
Post by: slither360 on March 09, 2011, 08:59:28 PM
If I remember correctly, AI, IT, IndiGo and 9W all have cadetship programs.

If you want to fly in India, now is the time.
Title: Re: Pilot Training
Post by: [ATA] APB Airlines on March 10, 2011, 06:47:18 AM
I am a regional pilot in the US. Training in the US can cost from the 50k to the 100K+ depends on where you go. A school such as Embry riddle or University of North Dakota will cost near the 100K+ range. After you received your license you would need to be a CFI or a freight dog to build time and then move to a regional. There you will start around 25k a year and in 5-7 years you should be a captain and make 60-90k. Right now in the US the regionals are just starting to hire. The majors should have some major hiring in the next few years. Our baby boomer's will be hitting forced retirement (65) soon (starts hitting in 2013) The majority of the majors are going to retire in the next 10 years. However it is still a crap shoot because airlines are consolidating and reducing capacity with slow growth in capacity.
Net jets is very big here and they have been expanding in Europe and Asia. They are still small compare to the US but there is a chance for growth there. Right now they are like most fractional/corporate flying and that is not expanding. They have many planes on order but a lot of them are going to replace the ageing birds.

Also I do not know what it is like anywhere but the US but airline life is not all it is cracked up to be. You are gone around 280 hours a month and you miss a lot of special events. ie: births, birthdays, holidays, ........ It is a very different lifestyle. You have to love flying in order to not go crazy doing it. Message me if you have any specific questions. 
Title: Re: Pilot Training
Post by: Ilyushin on March 10, 2011, 06:58:45 AM
For me, I am admitted to the KLM Flight Academy. Unfortunately KLM does not sponsor me so I will have to pay some 170000,- in total. Luckily the job opportunities for KLM Flight Academy cadets are quite good, so I think I'll be fine.

I wish you luck. I am a Groninger too and quite a frequent visitor to EHGG. ;D I live almost directly under the approach path of runway 23. I read before you studied at the RuG right now, my school is not far from that. :)
Title: Re: Pilot Training
Post by: GEnx on March 10, 2011, 07:29:27 AM
Indeed, I follow my courses at the RuG. At the time I got admitted to the KLM FA, the waiting list was so extensive that I was advised to do my Bachelor of Science first.
Title: Re: Pilot Training
Post by: Frogiton on March 11, 2011, 02:47:19 AM
2. Pilot wages in the United States are way lower than those in Europe.

FedEx pilots are among, if not the hightest, paid pilots in the world.
Title: Re: Pilot Training
Post by: EYguy on May 12, 2011, 05:12:56 AM
FedEx pilots are among, if not the hightest, paid pilots in the world.

My big bro flies for FedEx (converted a few months ago to the B777F) and he loves flying there. He comes from the Italian Air Force, then went to the USA, got married there and started working with FedEx during the boom of the industry in early 2000.
He's now making around 250000k (give ore take 2 or 3ks) and has got to accept a pay reduction two years ago with other senior pilots because of the GFC. Btw, what he always told me:"If you really want to become a pilot, the best way to get into the industry is through the freight airlines: good pay, lot of flight hrs (he regularly flies very close to 100hrs/month), you keep flying even if your a/c is empty or with very low payload". The bad part is that you fly mostly at night, usually short layover (12hrs or so), you can end up at bumf***nowhere in the middle of an ex Soviet country (some connection flights with LH Cargo in Russia) and the rating you have are usually for a/c not in pax service (except for MD-11F, B777F and B757. Very few major airlines still use the A300/310). But you can always sell yourself because of your flight hrs and experience on big a/c...
Title: Re: Pilot Training
Post by: Pilot Oatmeal on May 12, 2011, 06:35:21 AM
Thanks, I've always heard that the FedEx pilots were paid the best in the industry, I wonder how much their Cessna Caravan Pilots make?

Does anyone have any information about Bank Loans/ Student loans in the UK/USA? (i'm a citizen of both so its easy for me to go back to the US)

and does anyone have any information regarding the FlyBE sponsorship scheme, I've had a look at the website etc but I think I want to hear some first hand experience with them.
Title: Re: Pilot Training
Post by: EYguy on May 12, 2011, 06:49:03 AM
Have you had a look at Western Australia college of aviation, in Perth? Got a friend who's going to join them next year: the price is somewhere in between USA and Europe, but I heard lot of good things about that school. And We have pilots of Malaysia Airline here in Adelaide learning to fly for some kind of "apprentice/ab initio pilot" program...
Title: Re: Pilot Training
Post by: powi on May 12, 2011, 11:47:17 AM
I will be looking for a pilot position after few months. If somebody would ask me if I would recommend starting a commercial pilot training, the answer is definitely no. Only if I could recommend that to my self three years ago.

The flying part is still ok, now if somebody would actually pay me for doing it, it would be far better. Even better if I would be paid every month, then I could actually leave my current occupation.
Title: Re: Pilot Training
Post by: swiftus27 on May 12, 2011, 11:58:25 AM
For you to get hours you will need to fly signs around, it appears.  You almost have to become a CFI to get your time in.
Title: Re: Pilot Training
Post by: Dave4468 on May 13, 2011, 06:04:46 AM
J.Oates,

I briefly looked into this in the UK (eyesight has probably buggered up my chances :( ) and I'm pretty sure I remember seeing that training for a commercial pilot licence counts as lifelong learning or development or some other HR name but by doing that the government will give you loans similar to the student loans.

It might not be true but I'm sure I saw it somewhere.