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Miscellaneous => Archives => (archive) Game talk - The Modern Times #4 => Topic started by: trent_768 on March 24, 2011, 01:12:26 PM

Title: Making money with the ERJ and CRJ-200, possible?
Post by: trent_768 on March 24, 2011, 01:12:26 PM
Hi! I was a little bit late when joining this world, so i have to based on a smaller airport. My fleet consist of 5xDash 8-100, 1xE170 and 2xBrasilias and all of them are bringing me 150-190k per week. Pretty for me! 8) 8)

But recently, the low cruising speed of the Dash-8 started to annoyed me because my base has a curfew @ 22-7. I can't make more legs on every a/c cause my surrounding city is like 500nm or so. So,is it worth to replace my Dash-8 (@90k lease rate) with ERJ/CRJ-200 (around 200k lease rate) but with more pax, higher speed and more legs?
Title: Re: Making money with the ERJ and CRJ-200, possible?
Post by: BobTheCactus on March 24, 2011, 02:20:11 PM
Enjoy bankrupcy if you want to operate RJs. I suggest Bombardier Q400.
Also watch your fleet commonality
Title: Re: Making money with the ERJ and CRJ-200, possible?
Post by: Sami on March 24, 2011, 02:25:58 PM
I've done it with ERJ-145 & ERJ-170 fleet... 145s alone was hugely tight but with 170s added it was better.
Title: Re: Making money with the ERJ and CRJ-200, possible?
Post by: alexgv1 on March 24, 2011, 02:30:17 PM
I'd like to think it is possible despite the demotivators of a few opinionated forum users.

Using the 50 seaters alone is hard (dont got for lower, e.g. ERJ-135). Don't forget also later on the stretches of the CRJs (700/900) which pack more of a punch.
Title: Re: Making money with the ERJ and CRJ-200, possible?
Post by: BobTheCactus on March 24, 2011, 02:38:32 PM
It's possible, but it's really difficult. REALLY difficult. And there is a fuel spike ahead, which will kill any RJ centered airline.
Title: Re: Making money with the ERJ and CRJ-200, possible?
Post by: trent_768 on March 24, 2011, 05:11:04 PM
Well i think i'll skip the RJ! Do you think the E-170 was a better choice?

Enjoy bankrupcy if you want to operate RJs. I suggest Bombardier Q400.
Also watch your fleet commonality
Well the Brasilia's was added because the lack of the -100 in the used ac market. Not interested with the other series except the Q400. But somehow i feel that ~350k for a 70 seats props is to expensive! :'(
Title: Re: Making money with the ERJ and CRJ-200, possible?
Post by: BobTheCactus on March 24, 2011, 05:25:01 PM
E-170 is an RJ (regional jet). I suggest you fly props, not jets. Dash 8 is fine.
Title: Re: Making money with the ERJ and CRJ-200, possible?
Post by: trent_768 on March 24, 2011, 05:56:25 PM
E-170 is an RJ (regional jet). I suggest you fly props, not jets. Dash 8 is fine.
Well the so called 'RJ' that i mention before was the ERJ-135/145. ;D Because in some aviation forum, they use the term E-jets for the E170/175/190. Funny marketing gimmicks.... ;D ;D ;D

Title: Re: Making money with the ERJ and CRJ-200, possible?
Post by: Wing Commander Chad Studdington on March 24, 2011, 05:59:56 PM
I use a small (but growing) fleet of E-170s.

They make money depending on the alignment of the planets in that week. I get some weeks where the whole fleet is making a loss, some when none of them are. I wouldn't base a whole airline around them for that exact reason, I have a LH fleet making the real money.
Title: Re: Making money with the ERJ and CRJ-200, possible?
Post by: SuperVC10 on March 24, 2011, 06:52:22 PM
Hi,

I am operating from London City using a mixture of ATR's and Bombardier CRJ705 aircraft. I have the same issue, LCY is closed between 21-06 so it is difficult to get high aircraft utilisation. For short sectors there is little overall difference between the block times of the aircraft. The turnaround is roughly the same and speed difference is not significant enough to reduce the flying time.

The transition seems to occur at around 500 Nm, where the flight time in high density turboprop seating is more than the passengers will stand and the CRJ is significantly quicker.

The longest route I operate and still achieve 3 sectors per day is London City - Stockholm Arlanda. which is 774 Nm. The longest sector I operate is to Helsinki which is 981 Nm, any longer than this and a tech stop is required due to the short runway at LCY.


From an economic perspective, the most profitable routes I operate are ultra short haul with the ATR aircraft where four sectors per day can be flown by each aircraft. The Dash 8 Q400 is slightly faster than the ATR so I would base yourself somewhere which has a few medium demand routes (300 pax per day) in close range (<300 Nm). Don't add any jets until these routes are up and running and turning a profit.

The CRJ's I operate are profitable but they wouldn't sustain the airline on their own. In truth I could probably make more money by scrapping them and using the slots for additional ATR flights but I have to use them if I want to develop a route network which includes slightly longer haul (for LCY) destinations. The economics may be better using CRJ900 but the runway requirement at LCY makes this impractical. I will have to wait and see if they are still profitable during any fuel spike, I imagine it could be pretty marginal.

Hope this information is useful.

Ben
Title: Re: Making money with the ERJ and CRJ-200, possible?
Post by: L1011fan on March 24, 2011, 07:26:27 PM
Rule of thumb is you'll go into bankruptcy if you don't watch it nearly 24/7. Never ever discount your fares withose types of aircraft either. Always default or higher if you can get away with it. I tried it twice doing all of that and twice it went under giving it all the attention possible.  :-\
Title: Re: Making money with the ERJ and CRJ-200, possible?
Post by: Runner on March 25, 2011, 11:44:59 AM
I say it's not impossible to fly them. BUT it is very important that u use it in the right way. As suggested above, you should use props for routes shoter then 500nm. However, not every airport has enough suitable routes under 500nm so basically it all depends on where you are based. Your complete fleet strategy should be based on the routes available from a certain airport (your base, in this case). So don't choose an aircraft that everyone wants (or doesn't, for that matter), but choose one that suits your demands and requirements.
Title: Re: Making money with the ERJ and CRJ-200, possible?
Post by: swiftus27 on March 25, 2011, 11:58:29 AM
I am just still sad my demotivator got mocked...
Title: Re: Making money with the ERJ and CRJ-200, possible?
Post by: alexgv1 on March 25, 2011, 12:14:08 PM
I am just still sad my demotivator got mocked...

Don't be too saddened by it. It inspired me to do a new CRJ one.

http://www.airwaysim.com/forum/index.php/topic,20278.msg149975.html#msg149975 (http://www.airwaysim.com/forum/index.php/topic,20278.msg149975.html#msg149975)
Title: Re: Making money with the ERJ and CRJ-200, possible?
Post by: swiftus27 on March 25, 2011, 12:22:27 PM
I REALLY would love to see someone run a test airline with the CRJ 100/200 only.    Do what I did trying to succeed with a fleet of Fairchild a/c.   Make a diary/blog about it. 
Title: Re: Making money with the ERJ and CRJ-200, possible?
Post by: alexgv1 on March 25, 2011, 12:35:54 PM
I REALLY would love to see someone run a test airline with the CRJ 100/200 only.    Do what I did trying to succeed with a fleet of Fairchild a/c.   Make a diary/blog about it. 

I've considered it. I've had a halfhearted go with ERJs (the 145 ones I mean) in Europe. I think that would be the best place for them in my mind. I might give it another shot in some game world. I'll just remember not to order them new one by one.
Title: Re: Making money with the ERJ and CRJ-200, possible?
Post by: trent_768 on March 25, 2011, 12:56:25 PM
I REALLY would love to see someone run a test airline with the CRJ 100/200 only.    Do what I did trying to succeed with a fleet of Fairchild a/c.   Make a diary/blog about it. 
With a 10 credit donation, i'll do it for you... ;D ;D ;D

Btw,your Demotivators thread almost kill me swift!! :laugh: :laugh:
Title: Re: Making money with the ERJ and CRJ-200, possible?
Post by: d2031k on March 25, 2011, 01:03:06 PM
I REALLY would love to see someone run a test airline with the CRJ 100/200 only.    Do what I did trying to succeed with a fleet of Fairchild a/c.   Make a diary/blog about it. 

I am doing that right now in Sofia, although I've had to expand my options a little to their larger family members.  I managed to earn enough from my initial CRJ100/200s to afford leases on a nearly CRJ700 and a new CRJ900, which is nearing delivery.  Luckily when I started leases on the used market were near standard, as now every CRJ that appears has a much higher leasing price and would be unfeasibile.

It's hard work and every fuel rise dents profits massively, but profits are around 100-200k most weeks, which pay for the C-checks fine and eventually allow for the new leases.

The majority of the routes available aren't partcularly close, but there are a couple of domestic routes that have ~200 demand.

Progress is just very slow, but I'll be sticking with CRJs for the duration of the world to see how they fair.
Title: Re: Making money with the ERJ and CRJ-200, possible?
Post by: RushmoreAir on March 25, 2011, 05:22:28 PM
I REALLY would love to see someone run a test airline with the CRJ 100/200 only.    Do what I did trying to succeed with a fleet of Fairchild a/c.   Make a diary/blog about it. 

Done.  In DOTM, Primrose Airlines.

See my "Diary" in the general forum.
Title: Re: Making money with the ERJ and CRJ-200, possible?
Post by: ksliu9 on March 31, 2011, 03:42:44 PM
Hi! I was a little bit late when joining this world, so i have to based on a smaller airport. My fleet consist of 5xDash 8-100, 1xE170 and 2xBrasilias and all of them are bringing me 150-190k per week. Pretty for me! 8) 8)

But recently, the low cruising speed of the Dash-8 started to annoyed me because my base has a curfew @ 22-7. I can't make more legs on every a/c cause my surrounding city is like 500nm or so. So,is it worth to replace my Dash-8 (@90k lease rate) with ERJ/CRJ-200 (around 200k lease rate) but with more pax, higher speed and more legs?

I suggest you may try An-140 or MA60. Though the speed of both a/c are slow, they are REALLY CHEAP to lease!!! You can compare the price of an AN-140/MA60 with a CRJ200.   CRJ200 is about 2.5x more expensive than AN140, and about almost 2x more expensive than MA60. Also, how about the fuel consumption? Almost double!  Although you may make 3 or 4 more routes per day for your CRJ, while you can only make 2 or 3 routes for AN-140/MA60, I still think using those Russian/China made prop is preferable!
Title: Re: Making money with the ERJ and CRJ-200, possible?
Post by: flightsimer on April 11, 2011, 02:57:17 AM
how are the CRJ-700's and 900's doing right now?  fuel had just spiked to nearly $1000... im thinking about using them for ~700-1200nm routes that would only support a daily flight.

Im also considering the E jets instead since that would also allow me to have a larger pax capacity range with one family.

But either way, i want to serve these 700-1200nm routes that only have enough demand for a daily flight. Otherwise, ill send a 737-300 or 400 on it.

BTW the CRJ/E-jets would be my third type. Operating 737's and ATR's now.
Title: Re: Making money with the ERJ and CRJ-200, possible?
Post by: SuperVC10 on April 11, 2011, 07:57:08 AM
It depends how many of these routes you have, you will need a fleet of at least 6-8 CRJ's all operating at a profit just to recoup your costs for the extra type. I am running 8 CRJ-705 aircraft, all with pretty good LF. One of these aircraft is generally not profitable due to competition on the route, and another is load restricted due to the long range. The others make reasonable money, but the ATR's are more profitable. During the recent fuel spike the CRJ fleet as a whole was making a small loss, so the operation is pretty marginal.

It may make more sense to use a 737 as you already have the type and accept the lower load factors if you only have a few of these long thin routes, at least until you have the routes established. The economics of the CRJ-900 may be better, but the runway requirement at London City makes them impractical to operate over longer distances.
Title: Re: Making money with the ERJ and CRJ-200, possible?
Post by: flightsimer on April 11, 2011, 07:07:38 PM
It depends how many of these routes you have, you will need a fleet of at least 6-8 CRJ's all operating at a profit just to recoup your costs for the extra type. I am running 8 CRJ-705 aircraft, all with pretty good LF. One of these aircraft is generally not profitable due to competition on the route, and another is load restricted due to the long range. The others make reasonable money, but the ATR's are more profitable. During the recent fuel spike the CRJ fleet as a whole was making a small loss, so the operation is pretty marginal.

It may make more sense to use a 737 as you already have the type and accept the lower load factors if you only have a few of these long thin routes, at least until you have the routes established. The economics of the CRJ-900 may be better, but the runway requirement at London City makes them impractical to operate over longer distances.
I think i will be able to get at least 10-15 of which ever type i end up getting. Im liking the E-jets more  though because i can have a 70-105 pasx seating range while the CRJ's are either 68 or 80 seats but the Ejets are a little more fuel thirsty.
Title: Re: Making money with the ERJ and CRJ-200, possible?
Post by: Jetsetter on April 13, 2011, 04:08:38 PM
I have 16 CRJ-700ER's and 18 CRJ-200ER's in the fleet. The 700's are at a minimum of three rotations a day and bringing in between 20,000 to 120,000 on the three rotation aircraft, with a maximum of 220,000 on a 6 rotation aircraft. Geographically, I'm in the middle of nowhere, meaning my utilization on most aircraft will peak at 3 rotations. When we had the fuel spike a few days ago, I saw the margins drastically decrease, making only about 20,000 to a loss for most aircraft.

The CRJ-200's are worse. Some of them are already on really crappy distant routes, simply because I'm running out of dots to connect while waiting for the rest of my Airbii. I had almost a full screen of red on the -200's during the fuel spike. I'll be replacing them with 700's in the future once I've gotten my A32X routes sorted, and hopefully I've underserved the market enough to make money on the extra passengers.

I've noticed -200's start to fall flat on their face at around 700NM segment lengths, and CRJ-700's around 900NM. I haven't bothered with the LR options because if I'm flying a CRJ-700 1500 miles, I can only schedule two flights a day, and I will run very narrow margins.
Title: Re: Making money with the ERJ and CRJ-200, possible?
Post by: flyboy842 on May 01, 2011, 05:03:10 PM
Are the E145/170/195 in the same family?
Title: Re: Making money with the ERJ and CRJ-200, possible?
Post by: d2031k on May 01, 2011, 05:06:05 PM
Are the E145/170/195 in the same family?

The E135/140/145 is one family and the E170/175/190/195 is another family.
Title: Re: Making money with the ERJ and CRJ-200, possible?
Post by: flyboy842 on May 01, 2011, 05:12:56 PM
The E135/140/145 is one family and the E170/175/190/195 is another family.

Thanks Daveos... I am getting clobbered by a much bigger competitor who has just decided to open a base in my city (YEG) and he is using E jet against my MD80. He is definitely trying to Bankrupt me.. My barely 2 month old airline is getting crushed soon.. So I need to take drastic action..  I am determined as a newbie to make my Airline work in MTM.. I am taking a big risk to play in this game, against some of your advice, but hey, best way to learn is to sink or swim. :), so I am hanging on... until the bank closes me :)
Title: Re: Making money with the ERJ and CRJ-200, possible?
Post by: JDuff on May 01, 2011, 05:42:29 PM
Saab 2000s are a good bet for your problem. Turboprop efficiency, same seating as your Dash-8s, and near jetlike speed.
Title: Re: Making money with the ERJ and CRJ-200, possible?
Post by: badlt58 on June 02, 2011, 05:25:51 AM
I am a HUGE fan of Saabs. They burn a little more but they are so fast that on less dense routes its allowed me to move some E-jets to higher demand destinations. I currently have a Saab turning 6 seperate trips a day but no more than 450NM from home base.

The problem is they are nearly impossible to find! I bought an 18 year old one and the maintnenace is expensive. But there simply is no plane in its class that can compete with its speed, burn, turn around time, and capacity. I used them in another world and they were pretty good.
Title: Re: Making money with the ERJ and CRJ-200, possible?
Post by: ArcherII on June 03, 2011, 12:30:50 AM
I am a HUGE fan of Saabs. They burn a little more but they are so fast that on less dense routes its allowed me to move some E-jets to higher demand destinations. I currently have a Saab turning 6 seperate trips a day but no more than 450NM from home base.

The problem is they are nearly impossible to find! I bought an 18 year old one and the maintnenace is expensive. But there simply is no plane in its class that can compete with its speed, burn, turn around time, and capacity. I used them in another world and they were pretty good.

I agree they are awesome, and also look good to me! But if you feel that is becoming old, please try the Q400! While more expensive and just a tad slower (if you can call the Q400 any slower!), it has better turnaround (you can squeeze it to 40min, so the speed difference is nonexistent), and is available new and used.