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Author Topic: REMOVE or FIX the - "Do not buy slots for this airport" feature  (Read 345 times)

Offline Cornishman

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REMOVE or FIX the - "Do not buy slots for this airport" feature
« on: November 17, 2021, 08:03:30 PM »
Further to the horrendous experience I went through, we have got to prevent anyone else falling into the trap of thinking this feature has any use whatsoever in this game. If you try to do some planning of a schedule on any aircraft using this button on the "Open New Route" page, far from just creating a plan that should help you create the aircraft schedules you would like to investigate, here is what really happens:

Though you get ZERO benefit of being able to fly those routes (duh - you haven't actually bought the slot !) but what you do immediately invoke upon yourself is:

1). If you are already using your 3 fleets and you try to plan new routes like this on a new aircraft type - instantly you get the 4th fleet commonality penalties (which can be HUUUUUGE - I lost $300 million to this overnight  :o )

2). The system hire all the extra personnel needed for the aircraft you are just PLANNING.  So in my case, by simply wanting to PLAN what new routes would look like on just 28 planes I hired hundreds and hundreds of un-wanted staff with each slot THAT I DID NOT BUY  !!!

I have to say, this feature is a complete DISASTER.  I can see no earthly benefit to it if it isn't just intended to be used as a PLANNING tool, and yet it will cost you vastly.

Please Sami, if it can't be fixed then please, please remove the feature so nobody else falls into this horrible money-trap that I encountered.
« Last Edit: November 17, 2021, 08:06:09 PM by Cornishman »

Online schlaf

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Re: REMOVE or FIX the - "Do not buy slots for this airport" feature
« Reply #1 on: November 17, 2021, 09:51:01 PM »
Further to the horrendous experience I went through, we have got to prevent anyone else falling into the trap of thinking this feature has any use whatsoever in this game. If you try to do some planning of a schedule on any aircraft using this button on the "Open New Route" page, far from just creating a plan that should help you create the aircraft schedules you would like to investigate, here is what really happens:

Though you get ZERO benefit of being able to fly those routes (duh - you haven't actually bought the slot !) but what you do immediately invoke upon yourself is:

1). If you are already using your 3 fleets and you try to plan new routes like this on a new aircraft type - instantly you get the 4th fleet commonality penalties (which can be HUUUUUGE - I lost $300 million to this overnight  :o )

2). The system hire all the extra personnel needed for the aircraft you are just PLANNING.  So in my case, by simply wanting to PLAN what new routes would look like on just 28 planes I hired hundreds and hundreds of un-wanted staff with each slot THAT I DID NOT BUY  !!!

I have to say, this feature is a complete DISASTER.  I can see no earthly benefit to it if it isn't just intended to be used as a PLANNING tool, and yet it will cost you vastly.

Please Sami, if it can't be fixed then please, please remove the feature so nobody else falls into this horrible money-trap that I encountered.


Totally agree on this one!!  I went BK early in a gameworld just becouse I hired alot of staff that I didnt needed for slots that I never bought for aircrafts that didnt fly....

Offline Todorojoz

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Re: REMOVE or FIX the - "Do not buy slots for this airport" feature
« Reply #2 on: November 18, 2021, 03:28:55 AM »
I don't agree with removing the feature for 2 reasons.

1) if I am creating 7 day schedules and not all 7 days of slots are available at the moment, I use this feature then buy the slots I can get and wait for the others at a later time. Not having this feature will make people seperately create a bunch of slots for 1 day needlessly.

2) I do use the feature despite the costs as it can still be quite useful for multiple reasons if you can afford the costs.

I do agree that costs shouldn't come into play until a plan has an active slot on its schedule. I don't know how difficult it is to program that though.

Offline Mr.HP

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Re: REMOVE or FIX the - "Do not buy slots for this airport" feature
« Reply #3 on: November 18, 2021, 05:05:08 AM »

1). If you are already using your 3 fleets and you try to plan new routes like this on a new aircraft type - instantly you get the 4th fleet commonality penalties (which can be HUUUUUGE - I lost $300 million to this overnight  :o )

2). The system hire all the extra personnel needed for the aircraft you are just PLANNING.  So in my case, by simply wanting to PLAN what new routes would look like on just 28 planes I hired hundreds and hundreds of un-wanted staff with each slot THAT I DID NOT BUY  !!!


You don't mention if you scheduled those planned routes on A/C? I assume you did, and that triggered the commonality cost as well as staff cost?

There is benefit of the feature, so I'm against removing it. Fix the Hire staff and Commonality cost until routes have slots then

Offline gazzz0x2z

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Re: REMOVE or FIX the - "Do not buy slots for this airport" feature
« Reply #4 on: November 22, 2021, 03:41:21 PM »
Well, nope, it's very useful. Let's say you get a plane evey 6 weeks. You want a 7 days 7 planes schedule. First plane is there. If you buy the slots, you'll have to rebuy them later. to you make the schedule, don't buy the slots, schedule your first bird, and buy the slots of the one bird that will fly. Evey 6 weeks, hop, one more bird, a few more slots. You don't lose the slots and don't hav to rebuy them.

Why fix something that works as intended?

Online schlaf

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Re: REMOVE or FIX the - "Do not buy slots for this airport" feature
« Reply #5 on: November 22, 2021, 07:52:20 PM »
Well, nope, it's very useful. Let's say you get a plane evey 6 weeks. You want a 7 days 7 planes schedule. First plane is there. If you buy the slots, you'll have to rebuy them later. to you make the schedule, don't buy the slots, schedule your first bird, and buy the slots of the one bird that will fly. Evey 6 weeks, hop, one more bird, a few more slots. You don't lose the slots and don't hav to rebuy them.

Why fix something that works as intended?

The problem is as I see it that you hire staff (and  it effects commonality-costs) when you make a schedule with slots you dont use yet. Staff etc should be hired first when the aircrafts are up flying...

Offline Mort

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Re: REMOVE or FIX the - "Do not buy slots for this airport" feature
« Reply #6 on: November 23, 2021, 09:25:52 AM »
The way commonality currently seems to work is as soon as you have a single plane of a given fleet type scheduled, then all planes of that fleet type which aren't in storage (or for sale?) count towards the commonality cost.

Perhaps the balance change might be to only add planes to commonality which have at least one scheduled route with slots.

Offline DanDan

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Re: REMOVE or FIX the - "Do not buy slots for this airport" feature
« Reply #7 on: November 23, 2021, 09:53:31 AM »
The way commonality currently seems to work is as soon as you have a single plane of a given fleet type scheduled, then all planes of that fleet type which aren't in storage (or for sale?) count towards the commonality cost.

Perhaps the balance change might be to only add planes to commonality which have at least one scheduled route with slots.

https://www.airwaysim.com/forum/index.php/topic,82789.0.html
already discussed, see samis comment to it...

Offline Mort

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Re: REMOVE or FIX the - "Do not buy slots for this airport" feature
« Reply #8 on: November 23, 2021, 12:51:04 PM »
https://www.airwaysim.com/forum/index.php/topic,82789.0.html
already discussed, see samis comment to it...

That's the viewpoint of "what should be happening now" rather than "what could change as a feature request"

Offline Cornishman

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Re: REMOVE or FIX the - "Do not buy slots for this airport" feature
« Reply #9 on: December 04, 2021, 11:41:58 PM »
Well, nope, it's very useful. Let's say you get a plane evey 6 weeks. You want a 7 days 7 planes schedule. First plane is there. If you buy the slots, you'll have to rebuy them later. to you make the schedule, don't buy the slots, schedule your first bird, and buy the slots of the one bird that will fly. Evey 6 weeks, hop, one more bird, a few more slots. You don't lose the slots and don't hav to rebuy them.

Why fix something that works as intended?

Gazzz - how on earth... whether trying to relate to the real world or just this game, can anyone justify and defend the extortional price of $300 MILLION in just 6 weeks, simply for scheduling routes ON PAPER... ON A COMPUTER SCREEN.... oh come on guys... why do people defend this game like this when it gets things wrong.   Can't you see I'm not trying to have a system that works removed... I'm asking for it to be fixed!   ... just bloody realistic.   In what world would this sort of thing be acceptable? 
« Last Edit: December 05, 2021, 02:33:57 AM by Cornishman »

Offline Mort

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Re: REMOVE or FIX the - "Do not buy slots for this airport" feature
« Reply #10 on: December 06, 2021, 12:36:13 PM »
Gazzz - how on earth... whether trying to relate to the real world or just this game, can anyone justify and defend the extortional price of $300 MILLION in just 6 weeks, simply for scheduling routes ON PAPER... ON A COMPUTER SCREEN.... oh come on guys... why do people defend this game like this when it gets things wrong.   Can't you see I'm not trying to have a system that works removed... I'm asking for it to be fixed!   ... just bloody realistic.   In what world would this sort of thing be acceptable?

What Gazz suggested isn't uncommon it seems to me though? I know I've certainly done it that way, not bought slots when opening the routes, and then bought them individually as aircraft get delivered. Having them expire through not being used and paying for them twice is an unnecessary (and sometimes prohibitively costly) expense.

Perhaps the ideal here would be a planning version of the scheduling screen. This would allow you to mock up schedules without any impact on costs etc, I could see this needing more widespread changes to be made before being technically feasible though. We do not have any other interface for actually scheduling routes to aircraft, so the realistic and logical assumption here is that adding any routes to a plane on this page constitutes scheduling them.

The other part of this discussion seems to be related to aircraft commonality, which is as I'm sure you know, a long running and open discussion, with lots of suggestions raised, but none yet implemented. Not however directly related to the scheduling screen or aircraft slots.

Again trying to look at this logically, if you own or lease an aircraft, it would be expected that you have to maintain it, and train crew to operate it. There is already a deviation from real world logic applied (for the purposes of game balance, which I don't disagree with) in that until you have at least one aircraft from a fleet scheduled, that fleet doesn't get a commonality cost.

Perhaps it would be more intuitive if that deviation didn't occur, and you pay an administrative cost for any aircraft that isn't in storage (or on the UM), but that only exacerbates the downsides of the "3 fleet limit" issues with commonality that are present.

Online groundbum2

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Re: REMOVE or FIX the - "Do not buy slots for this airport" feature
« Reply #11 on: December 06, 2021, 01:32:05 PM »
this would almost be a non-issue if there was a dedicated "slot management" page. On this page I would want the ability to

1) release all unused slots at (a) HQ (b) other bases of mine (c) all non-base airports
2) buy all scheduled routes without slots. The logic should buy every slot possible, not an all or nothing logic. If slot quotas just buy in time order or some documented fashion so buyer/CEO aware before pushing the "buy" button.

I really think the game developer should run a 1000 aircraft airline just to see how the GUI only works for small airlines. Heck perhaps one of us could build a mega airline then hand it over to Sami to run for a few years so he can for himself how banal a fleet swap is, or changing 7 day schedules etc etc.

S

Offline gazzz0x2z

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Re: REMOVE or FIX the - "Do not buy slots for this airport" feature
« Reply #12 on: December 06, 2021, 04:25:20 PM »
$300 MILLION in just 6 weeks,

300M$ seems huge to me. My french company in HaTF (december 2005) pays 50M$ in salaries weekly, which fits your scenario. It, however, flies 114 A320s, 377 A140s, and 21 TU-204s. You don't schedule that kind of fleet within 6 weeks. It goes quicker for very larges, but still not to that point. You probably need to schedule 40 or more very larges at once to reach those levels of staff expenses. And you don't get 40 very larges within 6 game weeks when beginning. You can only once you're huge (and then drowning under money, which makes the whole point moot).

When beginning, assuming you already have a nice money flow, you can schedule 3 birds every 8 game days. That's 15 very larges within 6 weeks. That's very below your 300M$ of estimate staff costs. Either you are overestimating the staff costs of planning too early, or you mistook other costs for those costs.

Worse : there are solutions. You can set up staff hiring to manual when beginning, set up your routes without putting them on the screen, of deleting them (without closing) as soon as you like them, and you have no problem. Those solutions may be suboptimal, but they work. And even if they don't work, a properly set up company can rocket start without optimizing on this.

And I don't get this 6 weeks delay. Used planes arrive in 2 weeks, new ones are only available 3 weeks. Where are your 6 weeks? D-Checks? Why do you do D-Checks on such planes?

And for the commonality costs : well, as others said, it's another topic (which I didn't adress in my first answer). If those 300M$ are really comm costs, well, just wait for a few weeks before flying. Once again, this is NOT in relation with the ability to delay slots usage. I'll go even further : if 300M$ of losses during a transition kills your company, then your main problem is not commonality. It's basic weakness. For the comm costs to be punitive you need to be beyond 600 airplanes in your company. with 500 not that big airplanes, I do 40M$ of weekly pretax profit in 2005. That's a 400M$ quarterly operational positive cash flow. I'm still too small to incur such commonality costs. At this level, you should be around 100M$ pretax weekly, something like 1B$ of quarterly positive cash flow, and good reserves.

What your numbers show is that you grew your company beyond sustainability. A single bad event (self provoked, but could be external, as a volcano) is enough to put everything to the ground. You were brittle, vulnerable, and some kind of clever player would have attacked your positions, sooner or later. rereading all the thread an your explanations, my conclusion is : "you were doomed anyways". This way of working may have hastened your demise, but it was unavoidable anyways.

(That being said, groundbum2's proposals are most excellent - would make life really easier).

Offline Cornishman

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Re: REMOVE or FIX the - "Do not buy slots for this airport" feature
« Reply #13 on: December 07, 2021, 12:18:34 PM »
Absolutely agree... what this game so desperately lacks is a "slot management" page.  Somewhere that is recognised as being a TESTING ground... no planes involved ... only paper and/or computer evaluation. That's what I was led to believe I was using!  IRL I'm pretty sure airlines don't buy a whole fleet of new aircraft based on the details we can see in this game. You can bet your life they'll be doing a heck of a lot more "homework" testing out theories and creating mock-schedules to see where the good and bad results come in, ahead of and  ... IF .. they were to go ahead and buy a new fleet.

Gazzzz - I think you might be misunderstanding what happened to me here... your explanations regarding the 6 weeks aren't wrong but that's not at all what I was refering to:   In my situation, I played this game one RL afternoon back in mid November.  At that time what I wanted to do was establish what a whole bunch of rescheduled routes might look like on the masses of new 767ERs I had (which I don't dare operate until I have enough to swap the entire fleet over in one go due to this bonkers fleet-commonality penalty for a 4th fleet on a larger airline - but that's another debate).   So all I did, was schedule up 28 of my new 767s with the ORANGE coloured slots... I DID NOT PURCHASE ANY SLOTS - ergo - I COULD NOT FLY ANYTHING ANYWHERE... ergo... I did not expect the automated system to go and hire thousands of new staff and the whole sh*t-storm of Fleet-commonality penalty to come into play. I could not have dreamt-up a reason that would all happen... I hadn't enabled a single flight.... this was just a test excersize.    Then I jumped off my computer for the day and only returned to play AWS the next afternoon... or whenever it was.  By then, 6 weeks of game-time had rolled by and I had been robbed of over $300 million due to the incredulous fleet commonality and extra staff costs that were incurred by those actions I describe above, (my staff levels were suddenly at 138% per category which in itself tells you they weren't doing anything!). Fine to argue that there would be some extra costs incurred for the administration of the excersize... but $300m over a 6-week period ?!  If anyone would like to try to justify that sort of thing in RL to any company, then I'd love to see the resulting uproar.... you'd probably become known as the laughing-stock idiot throughout all business worlds !

Anyway... seems most of us agree, there is a serious bug in that system... or if you don't want to label it a bug, then label it how you like, but the system is seriously flawed.  As Simon said... we really need a "Test Slot Management Page"

I hope you can see I'm not trying to be obnoxious here, I just simply won't stand for things in life when they are not correct. I find all too often that the 2 or 3 poor systems that do exist in this game are just uber-loyally defended by a few... for whatever reason, and this system is not correct when you can be led into thinking you are innocently running a test programme... then WHALLOP !  that'll be $300 million thanks. That was practically all the spare cash I had at that time ! 

As an appropriate saying goes... " D*** Turpin (system won't let me type his real name, short for Richard   :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:) ... anyway, D*** Turpin at least had the humility to wear a mask whilst he robbed you!"
« Last Edit: December 07, 2021, 01:57:00 PM by Cornishman »

 

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