AirwaySim
Online Airline Management Simulation
Login
Username
Password
 
or login using:
 
My Account
Username:
E-mail:
Edit account
» Achievements
» Logout
Game Credits
Credit balance: 0 Cr
Buy credits
» Credit history
» Credits FAQ

Author Topic: Need some fresh air  (Read 1019 times)

Offline DanDan

  • Members
  • Posts: 2735
Need some fresh air
« on: October 06, 2020, 05:26:44 AM »
Fellow AWS players!

I played this game for more than three years. I spend countless days, and nights, trying to work out how to schedule my planes. I invested a lot of time into it all, and I dont regret it. But the challenge of that seems gone. I could of course make a bigger airline. I could try to go for a "Japanese Plane Lover Award", I could spend less wisely and go for the Russian one too though.

But truth be said: I dont want to. Already 1 1/2 years ago, after the end of my first "long" gameworld, I was not sure, if I would continue with the game. But I liked the project, so I gave it another go and played another gameworld and even started a second low-intensity game in parallel, just to support the cause. And while I tried to invest myself in this game, as many others did, it seems I have lost a lot of the "drive" and affection for this project.

And maybe I get it wrong, but I have the feeling that I am not the only one who is getting bored with AWS. It seems to me, that player numbers are dwindling. But possibly I just feel that way because in my airline-alliances forum, there was no new message for more than two weeks? Cooperation and communication between airlines has been reduced to an all-time low. And with it, it seems the game has lost more than just one layer of depth; really a whole dimension is gone.

Quite a lot of feature requests and proposals made are really worth implementing in my opinion, but lately it seems nothing is being done. And if, it is for the worse. Half-hearted quick-fixes are made permanent. Lots of "construction sites" expose big weaknesses in game mechanics for years. Maybe it is the current state of the world, and it all seems frozen, but AWS is paralyzed since long before.

How do you feel about it?

best regards,
DanDan

Online Sami

  • Administrator
  • Members
  • Posts: 16972
    • AirwaySim - Are you the next Richard Branson?

The 9 people who like this post:
Re: Need some fresh air
« Reply #1 on: October 06, 2020, 07:02:34 AM »
Have to understand that I am developing the sim in my spare time as my side job, among other things. Therefore I can't (and won't) set any fixed target dates or schedules for changes planned.

Another option would have been to program and release the sim back in the days, and then do nothing more about it. But instead I've chosen to manage and develop this for the last 10+ years already, adding new things every now and then and fixing the issues reported. And despite being sometimes very busy with other things I do attend the site and emails daily, and push new features and/or fixes to the system monthly. Quite a long lasting project I'd say.

Due to the recent changes in the whole world, and personal life, the AWS coding in the summer was not the top priority. But I'm still here :laugh:

Online C.elegans

  • Members
  • Posts: 4

The 4 people who like this post:
Re: Need some fresh air
« Reply #2 on: October 06, 2020, 09:59:07 AM »
I just re-discovered AWS recently but I want to praise Sami for the work he is being putting on this.
I don't know how many people used to play this on earlier days so I can't comment on that but I find it normal that after a while people will lose interest, leave and return a couple of years later to find new developments and mechanics and get hooked again for a while. I think that would happen even with shorter update intervals. I see myself doing that over and over through a plethora of different games, some with a rather small update cycle.

At the moment, I just hope that Sami is still enjoying this hobby and will continue to for a long time.

Cheers,
Celegans

Offline LemonButt

  • Members
  • Posts: 2198

The 3 people who like this post:
Re: Need some fresh air
« Reply #3 on: October 06, 2020, 12:41:34 PM »
I've played for 10+ years now with a few breaks.  It is true that player numbers have been higher, but IMO that is because the game was more like an arcade game versus a simulation with magic carpets and other "features" that made it more if a shoot em up arcade game versus a realistic business simulation.  I think over the past 10 years society in general has been more conditioned to expect instant gratification with small hits of dopamine on social media etc.  AWS by design is slow and requires patience to see short term decisions pay off long term.  The beauty of AWS in my opinion is you can do everything or nothing and both can work.  I also think that new players get a false sense of accomplishment in beginners works and then when they join a real game world they don't end up self destructing.  This is where my feature request off subsidiary airlines comes in where new players get handed an already profitable airline while allowing experienced players to expand indefinitely.

Offline RALLX

  • Members
  • Posts: 155

The person who likes this post:
Re: Need some fresh air
« Reply #4 on: October 06, 2020, 01:08:04 PM »
If you have not done this already, how about challenging yourself to operate solely the concorde planes  ;D

Offline Antoine

  • Members
  • Posts: 158
Re: Need some fresh air
« Reply #5 on: October 06, 2020, 07:39:37 PM »
Having played the game all through 2016-2018 I took a two year break from the game and on my return this year, I  realised I needed to try something radical (20-9 seater airline ) just to keep myself entertained enough not to BK.

However this isn’t a negative against the game progress. I do appreciate the time and effort it takes to make big changes so in order to stay up to date with the game I’ve chosen to try play it differently.

Offline groundbum2

  • Members
  • Posts: 982

The person who likes this post:
Re: Need some fresh air
« Reply #6 on: October 06, 2020, 07:45:50 PM »
I agree a big issue is dwindling player numbers; it's the same old faces making the same old moves, and newbies getting squished like roadkill.

There are a lot of QoL suggestions out that take the drudge out of running a big airline.

Connecting traffic and CBD pax would add a lot to the game. As far I'm concerned CBD is ready for pax.

Simon

Online zuluboi

  • Members
  • Posts: 43
Re: Need some fresh air
« Reply #7 on: October 07, 2020, 06:17:11 AM »
I personally haven't played the long games fully, mostly because of work and I can never commit to a full length GW especially since I work on ships, I have little time between running a department and the really slow unreliable internet.

I don't play a lot, because of time. I'm home now since the cruise industry is at a pause and I'm craving another fast GW, or short regional challenge and I've tried another simulator in the past but I've always preferred this one. There's been a lot of changes over the years, good changes that is... A lot has been added to the games, the only thing I'd really like to see is growth in Africa in terms of pax and cargo traffic, I'm sure it will get better in the future...

Online gazzz0x2z

  • Members
  • Posts: 4238
Re: Need some fresh air
« Reply #8 on: October 07, 2020, 11:32:26 AM »
My current games are half-baked because of IRL constraints as well. DXB in modern times is damn quiet, which is perfect. I set up a new 7-7 every 3 days, it's enough to get airport dominance. I don't have any more time to make a full competitive as I did before. And SGN is just perfect for a low maintenance game (be sure to do some brokering not to die out of boredom)

Offline DanDan

  • Members
  • Posts: 2735
Re: Need some fresh air
« Reply #9 on: October 07, 2020, 12:03:48 PM »
My current games are half-baked because of IRL constraints as well. DXB in modern times is damn quiet, which is perfect. I set up a new 7-7 every 3 days, it's enough to get airport dominance. I don't have any more time to make a full competitive as I did before. And SGN is just perfect for a low maintenance game (be sure to do some brokering not to die out of boredom)

well... i was the biggest broker ever, but at the end of a gw that is not really as interesting and with the most recent changes in sales price, but also before with changes to the production lines, it gets nearly impossible to do.

Offline [ATA] Frimp

  • Members
  • Posts: 1979

The 4 people who like this post:
Re: Need some fresh air
« Reply #10 on: October 16, 2020, 01:51:01 AM »
It sometimes takes a need for a break... I've played for like 10 years + almost non stop.. going to play new speedy world but I'm no longer taking this game to the same intensity as I used to..  It's not because of the lack of innovation or competitiveness it's just purely due to me prioritising my time elsewhere.. AWS used to take up to 3-4hrs of my day.. I don't want it to get to that anymore... don't get me wrong I made some great friends through AWS, but I don't think it's worth my time and effort any more these days..  every player will have different commitments.. its worth understanding that especially if you manage an alliance..  If sami wants to truly build this community I would advocate some sort of incentive for people to finalise gw's... i.e.  pay 20 credits to join a gw at beginning and if you play till the end you get 10 back.. if you end in top 10 of a scoring dynamic you get more credits back... that way I could see some people being incentivised....

Online tungstennedge

  • Members
  • Posts: 323
Re: Need some fresh air
« Reply #11 on: October 17, 2020, 05:44:23 AM »
In terms of newer players struggling to get into the game, which results in dwindling numbers, I have to say one of the largest culprits has to be the fact that route image starts very low in new games.

It takes a decently dedicated player, who reads the forums and actively tries to find mentorship and such from older players who can actually climb the learning curve to get into the game, even a couple of my ave-geek friends have quit due to struggling to get their young and small companies profitable. I often see young companies over managing, like messing around with pricing, marketing, and seat configs to try get their load factors up when in fact their only issue is having low RI, something quite simple but extremely overbearing over load factors.

 It would be nice if new companies got 100 RI on their first couple routes when joining beginner worlds. Since multi accounting is strictly forbidden anyone following the rules wouldn't exploit this to get a head start, and I believe the experienced community for this game is both mature and trustworthy enough not to use this for exploiting and getting an advantage, while new players get a chance to start with a profitable airline, and hopefully the number of new players who get into the game stay around for the longhual.

Offline Wreck

  • Members
  • Posts: 1329
Re: Need some fresh air
« Reply #12 on: October 17, 2020, 09:52:56 AM »
After 8 or 9 years this is the end for me. If you try to do something different to relieve the repetitiveness of building a standard big scale airline then it gets squashed by rule changes. I tried running Argosies for a complete long game world in an out of the way location and tried building a larger scale airline based on medium cargo aircraft, both effectively outlawed now.

The points scoring mechanics means that you can only really compete with a template airline started on day 1. Doing that, only to be at the mercy of whatever random pointless world event  is active at the end of a game world is no longer interesting for me.

Here's hoping for a 6 month "furry convention" in the US at the end of GW#2.

Online Sami

  • Administrator
  • Members
  • Posts: 16972
    • AirwaySim - Are you the next Richard Branson?
Re: Need some fresh air
« Reply #13 on: October 17, 2020, 12:30:49 PM »
I have to say one of the largest culprits has to be the fact that route image starts very low in new games.

The RI starts at up to 60 pts when you join an ongoing game. I haven't seen it necessary to introduce such "boosts" at the initial stage of the game since joining an empty world in a new game is very much easier. And if you use the 'easy start' where 2 planes and routes are set up automatically, it's hard to go wrong. In initial stages the biggest gremlin is probably the "overdoing" what you mentioned.

But I've noticed that people tend to dislike the 'easy start' mode, and try with the advanced instead... For this reason it Beginner's scenarios it defaults to the easy mode and you need to click on the small 'Change startup method' button in order to revert away from it.


in an out of the way location and tried building a larger scale airline based on medium cargo aircraft, both effectively outlawed now.

Um, what on earth are you talking about?
« Last Edit: October 17, 2020, 12:41:37 PM by Sami »

Offline JumboShrimp

  • Members
  • Posts: 8066
Re: Need some fresh air
« Reply #14 on: October 18, 2020, 04:02:57 AM »
Um, what on earth are you talking about?

I am not sure, but I am guessing that flying a medium cargo aircraft from very expensive airport may not be very profitable.

Online gazzz0x2z

  • Members
  • Posts: 4238
Re: Need some fresh air
« Reply #15 on: October 18, 2020, 03:29:32 PM »
flying medium cargo is not profitable, period.

Online Mort

  • Members
  • Posts: 576
Re: Need some fresh air
« Reply #16 on: October 18, 2020, 03:32:05 PM »
flying medium cargo is not profitable, period.

I foresee LemonButt coming to dispute this in 3, 2, 1..  :P

Offline JumboShrimp

  • Members
  • Posts: 8066

The person who likes this post:
Re: Need some fresh air
« Reply #17 on: October 18, 2020, 10:33:14 PM »
I foresee LemonButt coming to dispute this in 3, 2, 1..  :P

I said from expensive base.  LemonButt's experiments were from a very cheap base.

BTW, I have a flight from EWR to ATL that is 100% full, 90% of it is heavy cargo and it is losing money.  So flying short distance between super expensive bases is a challenge even for a large aircraft.

Offline LemonButt

  • Members
  • Posts: 2198

The person who likes this post:
Re: Need some fresh air
« Reply #18 on: October 19, 2020, 12:36:02 AM »
I had a long post typed up the other day for this but decided not to post it as to stir the pot, but the short answer is he is 100% accurate that light and standard cargo that the only way to win is to not play the game.  That is, if you are flying small or medium freighters it is impossible to be profitable.  You must carry heavy cargo with large+ aircraft to actually be profitable.

I've beat so many horses so many times, but this IMO is just a symptom of a larger problem that "power users" like myself and others will tinker to see what's possible and try new things, only to find things are broken or not working as intended.  This feedback gets shared and everyone claims its a waste of time or otherwise because it doesn't affect the vanilla all Airbus/Boeing airline at a top 50 airport strategy that 90%+ of players seem to use.  The bottom line is that you can make money flying light and standard cargo, but only if you are flying long distances which can only be done with large or very large aircraft.  If you are trying to fly small or medium aircraft which cap out at 1000nm range on a good day, it is impossible to make money--even out of secondary or third-ary or fourth-ary airport.  I had a huge fleet of Il-114 in HaF out of Gary once upon a time and even with the massive demand Chicago provides, flew with a -20% profit margin I want to say.  In Speedy Recovery I had CRJ200F that I was flying with 100% standard cargo capacity to it's limit within Europe (Cologne to Turkey, for example) that I believe were maybe breaking even, but that was with high load factors and hacky cargo allocation.

Re: cargo on small and medium airplanes I've made the case before that heavy cargo has nothing to do with volume and a can of tomato soup is considered heavy cargo based on the density calculations and a Cessna can't fly cans of tomato soup, nor can a medium freighter such as the CRJ200F.  This is in spite of the fact the cargo door is larger than a 737F which can carry heavy cargo (I think it was 737F).  This hard coded limitation makes it impossible for these smaller aircraft to ever use their real world payload limitations.  The Cessna Supercargomaster has a max payload of 1618kg but is limited to only 80% of it's payload of 1280kg because it can only carry volumetric light cargo, for example.

The net effect if you are running a cargo airline you need to fly very large aircraft or basically 757F.  This isn't theory at this point--you can look at virtually any game world and see this is true.  There is 1 small aircraft (Cessna) and 3 medium aircraft freighters in AG and out of those I am the only one who owns any Cessnas and there are no medium freighters in service.  The Il-114 for a long period was the only medium freighter available and only 6 were ever built.  There are approx 100 Tu204 freighters in service and 7750 757F in service.  Cargo has basically been distilled down to flying B757F and very large aircraft (MD11F, 777F, 747F).

I have plenty of opinions on how to improve cargo and other features as I've said before I feel like I've beat a lot of dead horses that no one really cares about because no one has really paid attention to it, but in terms of the statement that medium freighters (and small ones) being unprofitable/impossible is largely accurate based on all of the above.  A Cessna has the payload capacity and a purpose built cargo door to transport a palette of tomato soup, but the hard coded limitations in the game make this impossible.  If these aircraft could fly, they could fly.  Again, standard cargo is profitable if you fly it far enough, but that can only be done on large/very large aircraft.  I've tested and confirmed this first hand and I'd like to think most of the "power users" would consider me an above average player that should be able to figure it out if it's actually possible...

With all of this being said, I mentioned I didn't post before because I don't want to stir the pot--there is an overwhelmingly large amount of things that are "right" with the game and I don't want to overshadow this.  But I am happy others are now experiencing and speaking up about the same issues I've encountered to help move everything forward.  IMO the solution is to make every dedicated freighter capable of handling any class of cargo.  Smaller aircraft are already range limited and considering CBD produces more cargo as the distance goes up (to an extent), there really is no need to doubly penalizing these aircraft by limiting them to the least profitable cargo available on the shortest routes with the lowest volumes, which in so many words is what I believe Wreck (the OP on the cargo) was trying to articulate.

Offline sanabas

  • Members
  • Posts: 458
Re: Need some fresh air
« Reply #19 on: October 19, 2020, 01:04:41 AM »
I said from expensive base.  LemonButt's experiments were from a very cheap base.

In the current AG, when it was in I think late 80s and 90s, the f27 freighters I had from both Charlotte and IAD were profitable. Nothing insane, I only had ~40 of them, and there weren't the same opportunities to scale it up like there were for pax turboprops, but the freighters were producing similar profits to the mid-tier pax planes, and would have been a sustainable airline on their own.

 

WARNING! This website is not compatible with the old version of Internet Explorer you are using.

If you are using the latest version please turn OFF the compatibility mode.