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Author Topic: Hate my 340-500's  (Read 143 times)

Offline Vostok

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Hate my 340-500's
« on: June 21, 2020, 06:16:48 PM »
So I thought Id get the 500's to grab the ultra long haul routes. My mistake...

Even with decent load factors and prices 10% above normal theres ZERO profit. Its the insane lease cost which I even managed to get fairly low before itsp price climbed.

Offline gazzz0x2z

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Re: Hate my 340-500's
« Reply #1 on: June 21, 2020, 08:37:10 PM »
ULH is very hard. Plus even if you owned the thing, you'd still be negative. A340s simply don't face well high fuel prices. Note that IL96 are even worse (benne there, done that, got the T-Shirt).

Still one question. How many hours is the baby flying? LH birds have to fly at least 18/19 hours per day.

Online knobbygb

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Re: Hate my 340-500's
« Reply #2 on: June 21, 2020, 08:45:51 PM »
I'm your competitor on that route, using 767-200ER with a tech-stop.  I'm getting slightly higher load factors than you, despite the stop, so I'm guessing either your CI or RI isn't up to 100% yet.  Possibly your 10% price hike may be affecting you as your load factors don't appear good enough to be doing that. My aircraft are slightly smaller than yours - 198 vs 224 seats, and I'm making a decent profit - nothing amazing, but decent. Of course, a fully paid for 767 is a LOT cheaper to fly than a leased A340!

In general leasing large, expensive widebodys is a recipe for loss-making, particularly on ULH routes like this. That's even more true in a well advanced game where fuel is not exactly cheap and there is well developed competition.  It COULD work if you owned the aircraft OR if there was plenty of cargo OR no competition.  There's a reason why these kind of routes didn't work in real life - not with a large 4-engine WB anyway and why many A345 didn't even make it to their 10th birthdays.  Generally, I see these ULH routes as for 'vanity' only - to fly to more places than anyone else to just to annoy a competitor. If you make a tiny profit while doing so, then all the better.


EDIT: as gazzz says, overall utilisation is also very important. You're flying the route three times per week which makes me think you're not using 7-day scheduling.  From the figures you give, the leasing cost is nearly as big as ALL the other expenses combined.  Every hour those aircraft sit on the ground is costing you BIG $$$.  You can't reduce the fuel and route fees for SPJC-RJAA, but you CAN spread the lease fee over other routes.

They CAN work, even leased, if you get them ultra-cheap (and by that I mean maybe 25% of their 'real' value) and fly the wings off them.

« Last Edit: June 21, 2020, 08:56:16 PM by knobbygb »

Offline Vostok

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Re: Hate my 340-500's
« Reply #3 on: June 21, 2020, 09:17:45 PM »
Thanks for the responses. Most constructive.

I was venting mainly as I have never done ULH on here. Im glad I only ordered 4 A345's to test as any more would have sank me. I was running out of solid routes from Chile so thought id give it a go. I did the clunky 7 day schedule as I didnt have enough aircraft so its doing about 19 hour days with a haul up to canada. Im just trying to reduce the losses at this point.

I shall go back to my trusty 50% margin Metros  :laugh: and try to offset the A340's with some A330 usage until I can cancel the leases.

Offline groundbum2

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Re: Hate my 340-500's
« Reply #4 on: June 21, 2020, 09:28:22 PM »
maybe it's worth mentioning for future readers that this isn't just limited to A340-500s, Boeing 777s have exactly the same rap sheet - sexy range and capacity but airline killing machines!

S

Online knobbygb

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Re: Hate my 340-500's
« Reply #5 on: June 22, 2020, 11:10:03 AM »
maybe it's worth mentioning for future readers that this isn't just limited to A340-500s, Boeing 777s have exactly the same rap sheet - sexy range and capacity but airline killing machines!

S

UNLESS you can also fill the belly with cargo, of course.  I'm hoping this will work as I've just ordered 100 brand new 777-200LR for my routes out of Japan as the 767s aren't really big enough any more. Ironically, LIM is one of the routes that I will be using them on. Double-ironically, the A340-500 was the other aircraft I was considering.  It was better for me in every respect except for one: I will also want to use 777 Freighters when they're available.

To the OP - I bet there is SOMEWHERE you can use them to maek even a small profit.  I haven't got time to look, but even if you 'abuse' them by running short-haul high density, they'll probably make SOME money.  Look for routes where there is plenty of cargo and kit them out with fewer than the maximum seats (or just block some seats). Stick to routes <3000nm so that fuel burn is;t such an issue and you'll also get better utilization.  Sorry, I know there isn't that much choice out of LIM but just throwing the idea out there.


Offline stealy

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Re: Hate my 340-500's
« Reply #6 on: June 23, 2020, 09:50:37 AM »
There is hardly any cargo in and out of South America unfortunately, which makes flying long-haul (and God forbid ULH...) to/from South America much less profitable than flying to/from North America, Europe, and East Asia. That said, you can still use those A340-500 on more reasonable routes to North America and Europe (or anywhere under 6000nm) where you can at least save on the fuel costs and carry a bit more cargo (hopefully).

224 seats on an A340-500 may also be a problem since you should be carrying at least 250-300 passengers on any A340s. They aren't exactly small efficient birds; they are big and thirsty, so carrying 50 more passengers can be a game changer in terms of revenue increase. I assume you are using a lot of "premium" seats rather than standard seats. Don't bother with "premium" seats as they make little to no difference (though I wish they did...)

And lastly, grab three more A330s/340s (the cheapest ones available?) and make a 7 day schedule with at least six medium to long-haul flights. You need to optimize your usage of these birds if you want to be profitable or at least lose less money.

And remember, never ever ever ever ever ever lease brand-new expensive widebodies under any circumstances. If you can't afford to buy them, you can't afford to fly them. Period.

Offline gazzz0x2z

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Re: Hate my 340-500's
« Reply #7 on: June 23, 2020, 02:13:44 PM »
@Stealy : your last sentence also applies to any costly bird - whatever the category. When the Ejets reach 65M$ each, the A320s 120M$ each, the same rule applies : purchase them new and you're the king of the world, lease them new and you'll be soon forgotten.

 

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