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Author Topic: [ok] Winglet range not working properly  (Read 4973 times)

Offline JumboShrimp

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[ok] Winglet range not working properly
« on: September 28, 2019, 01:30:57 PM »
On routes where payload is range limited, aircraft with added winglet (and added range) does not increase payload capability.

(testing 757-200PF + Blended Winglets in MT, aircraft: https://www.airwaysim.com/game/Aircraft/My/View/41403/ on all routes)
« Last Edit: March 22, 2020, 09:17:28 AM by Sami »

Offline JumboShrimp

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Re: Winglet range not working properly
« Reply #1 on: November 06, 2019, 12:05:45 AM »
Ok, I set up a route that has a 2619nm.

752-200PF with winglets has a range of 2590nm
752-200PF without winglets has a range of 2440nm

Chart of 2440nm aircraft, at 2600nm says payload is 36,841kg
Chart of 2590nm aircraft, at 2600nm says payload is 38,132kg

So I scheduled 2 flights to 2 of these aircraft, and I got the following route supply chart - equal capacity following the 2440nm ranged aircraft without winglets.  So winglets did not add any range.

I can't really test the fuel consumption with all the randomness and difference being very small (3%).

Edit: The route I was using is TPE-LKO in MT Gameworld.  I will leave it up for a couple of days, but will have to terminate it since it is losing money for me.
https://www.airwaysim.com/game/Routes/Planning/RCTP/VILK/?go=1
« Last Edit: November 08, 2019, 08:38:52 PM by JumboShrimp »

Offline JumboShrimp

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Re: Winglet range not working properly
« Reply #2 on: December 02, 2019, 06:40:37 AM »
The same issue applies to passenger flights.

I just upgraded an A321, and the payload/range limited flights did not increase the number of passengers it carries on payload limited leg of the flight.

Offline JumboShrimp

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Re: Winglet range not working properly
« Reply #3 on: December 03, 2019, 01:34:21 PM »
Regarding improved fuel consumption, it is nearly impossible to test by players because the improvement is within the margin of randomness in the system, from different number of pax being carried to other possible sources of randomness which makes each flights fuel consumption different.

Offline tungstennedge

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Re: Winglet range not working properly
« Reply #4 on: December 06, 2019, 08:27:32 PM »
You could test it if you only have one plane, I believe. I  remember testing the limits for margin in a beginner world with one plane and it was remarkably stable.

Offline JumboShrimp

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Re: Winglet range not working properly
« Reply #5 on: December 07, 2019, 02:27:25 PM »
You could test it if you only have one plane, I believe. I  remember testing the limits for margin in a beginner world with one plane and it was remarkably stable.

I guess it could be tested on a route with 100% LF (which would remove one variable).  Probably better to have 2 planes on the route on different days, so that you could test at the same fuel price.
« Last Edit: December 07, 2019, 02:29:41 PM by JumboShrimp »

Offline JumboShrimp

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Re: Winglet range not working properly
« Reply #6 on: February 23, 2020, 07:34:08 PM »
Amy update on this?

A lot of players are diligently upgrading aircraft with these, to no effect.

Offline JumboShrimp

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Re: Winglet range not working properly
« Reply #7 on: March 07, 2020, 10:22:00 PM »
Just testing with a different fleet.  I have 737-300 with and without winglets.  I have a route that has an equivalent still air distance of 2983.

For the range 2983 the aircraft without winglets has payload limit of 85 passengers.

Adding winglets, the aircraft should have a payload of 98 pax, but this is what happens (hint, nothing):

Monday, no winglets, should be 85
Tuesday, winglets, should be 98

Offline JumboShrimp

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Re: Winglet range not working properly
« Reply #8 on: March 07, 2020, 10:36:02 PM »
Similarly, 737-300F with and without Winglets.  Route with equivalent still air distance of 2674nm should have capacities of:

No Winglet (Wednesday) ~ 10,500 kg
Winglet (Thursday) - 11,500 kg

Here is the result (not effect):


Offline Talentz

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Re: Winglet range not working properly
« Reply #9 on: March 07, 2020, 11:05:46 PM »
I have seen the range for me work as intended. Many times I've taken more cargo (kg) on a payload limited route when switching from a non-winglet aircraft. The differences are minor for large aircraft, but can be noticeably higher on a very large aircraft.

Though I will say I have not or don't track the fuel aspect of the Winglet improvement. Its a very small improvement, if any. 1k more cargo is worth far more then 3% fuel anyway.


Talentz
Co-founder and Managing member of: The Star Alliance Group™ - A beta era, multi-brand alliance.

Offline LemonButt

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Re: Winglet range not working properly
« Reply #10 on: March 07, 2020, 11:15:30 PM »
Are you sure it's not due to runway requirements?

Offline JumboShrimp

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Re: Winglet range not working properly
« Reply #11 on: March 07, 2020, 11:54:44 PM »
I have seen the range for me work as intended. Many times I've taken more cargo (kg) on a payload limited route when switching from a non-winglet aircraft. The differences are minor for large aircraft, but can be noticeably higher on a very large aircraft.

Though I will say I have not or don't track the fuel aspect of the Winglet improvement. Its a very small improvement, if any. 1k more cargo is worth far more then 3% fuel anyway.


Talentz

Can you check for example of this?  I have not come across a single example of the winglet working.

Offline JumboShrimp

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Re: Winglet range not working properly
« Reply #12 on: March 07, 2020, 11:56:38 PM »
Are you sure it's not due to runway requirements?

Both test cases are departing from Newark, so plenty of runway - 3353m - while the aircraft tested needs less than 2000m to take off with MTOW.

Offline Sami

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Re: Winglet range not working properly
« Reply #13 on: March 08, 2020, 07:52:38 AM »
I know the reason already, just a tad difficult to fix.

If you wish to get the capacities right just re-schedule the routes (clear -> add).

Offline JumboShrimp

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Re: Winglet range not working properly
« Reply #14 on: March 08, 2020, 08:41:23 AM »
I know the reason already, just a tad difficult to fix.

If you wish to get the capacities right just re-schedule the routes (clear -> add).

I just tried it again, recreating the cargo route from scratch, assigned to 2 aircraft, one with winglet, one without, and the result is still the same:

GW2/HaF
https://www.airwaysim.com/game/Routes/Planning/KEWR/EIKN/?go=1

Offline Talentz

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Re: Winglet range not working properly
« Reply #15 on: March 08, 2020, 09:30:50 AM »
Yeah, he is right.

In route creation screen, it shows base range (lower); However once you actually assign it, the payload is the same (higher) for both aircraft (with and without winglets)


It truly is the best money sink feature ~


Talentz
Co-founder and Managing member of: The Star Alliance Group™ - A beta era, multi-brand alliance.

Offline JumboShrimp

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Re: Winglet range not working properly
« Reply #16 on: March 17, 2020, 03:40:24 AM »
Is at least the fuel savings working for the winglets, while the payload range is still not working?

Because 757 winglets just launched in HaF, and I am wondering if there is any point spending money on them for now....

Offline Sami

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Re: Winglet range not working properly
« Reply #17 on: March 22, 2020, 09:17:24 AM »
- MD-80, P&W-217, Y-STD-172, Nominal still-air range 1210 NM
- Route DFW-JFK, 1206 NM
   => Payload limitation KDFW - KJFK: No limitation
   => Payload limitation KJFK - KDFW: 156 pax

- Install a dummy upgrade package: Range +50NM, fuel +3%

- Results in 172 / 164 pax on the route.

=> Fixed. But currently still buggy with techstops. This will be improved in the next major revision of the system.


Offline JumboShrimp

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Re: Winglet range not working properly
« Reply #18 on: March 22, 2020, 07:30:39 PM »
- MD-80, P&W-217, Y-STD-172, Nominal still-air range 1210 NM
- Route DFW-JFK, 1206 NM
   => Payload limitation KDFW - KJFK: No limitation
   => Payload limitation KJFK - KDFW: 156 pax

- Install a dummy upgrade package: Range +50NM, fuel +3%

- Results in 172 / 164 pax on the route.

=> Fixed. But currently still buggy with techstops. This will be improved in the next major revision of the system.

In other words, it does not fix cargo, where 90% of most affected flights are.  ;)

 

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