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Author Topic: Confusion Over Range vs Payload  (Read 838 times)

Online tungstennedge

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Confusion Over Range vs Payload
« on: September 16, 2019, 12:32:25 AM »
Ive taken about a half year break from this game, now I cannot seem to open the same kind of routes as I could before. For example, I'm trying to fly the a300R from London to Miami, 3800NM, with my a300 which has been configured to have 4000NM of range, yet I cannot open the route. It says that my plane cannot fly the route and i cant schedule the route. Can anyone explain why? Thanks!

Offline [ATA] Verto

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Re: Confusion Over Range vs Payload
« Reply #1 on: September 16, 2019, 01:00:15 AM »
Ive taken about a half year break from this game, now I cannot seem to open the same kind of routes as I could before. For example, I'm trying to fly the a300R from London to Miami, 3800NM, with my a300 which has been configured to have 4000NM of range, yet I cannot open the route. It says that my plane cannot fly the route and i cant schedule the route. Can anyone explain why? Thanks!

This is due to the new wind element.

You need to be looking as the equivalent still air distance which is behind the ? when opening a route.

Offline Talentz

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Re: Confusion Over Range vs Payload
« Reply #2 on: September 16, 2019, 01:06:09 AM »
Hello, read the following changelog:

https://www.airwaysim.com/forum/index.php/topic,58865.msg479818.html#msg479818

and to reflect this, displayed text is now:

https://www.airwaysim.com/forum/index.php/topic,58865.msg480300.html#msg480300

Basically, wind is now more realistic and can greatly effect range of an aircraft. Usually on one part of the leg (against headwinds). Moving forward, flying at the edge of an aircraft's range is no longer suitable.

You should probably read the changelog for the past 6 months to get caught up. There are a few more changes to go along with the (new) wind calculations.


Talentz

ahh... beat me to it
:laugh:
Co-founder and Managing member of: The Star Alliance Groupô - A beta era, multi-brand alliance.

Online Sami

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Re: Confusion Over Range vs Payload
« Reply #3 on: September 16, 2019, 06:51:42 AM »

Offline schlaf

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Re: Confusion Over Range vs Payload
« Reply #4 on: September 16, 2019, 11:24:34 AM »
The new wind element is the most stupid update ever,
Itís just to hard to understand and play with so most new players
give up and leave AWS.

Earlier we actually hit the 700max players for each game world (at least in
the beginning of each world)
Now down to only 250-300players in each game world!

Offline Mort

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Re: Confusion Over Range vs Payload
« Reply #5 on: September 16, 2019, 11:43:48 AM »
The new wind element is the most stupid update ever,
Itís just to hard to understand and play with so most new players
give up and leave AWS.

Earlier we actually hit the 700max players for each game world (at least in
the beginning of each world)
Now down to only 250-300players in each game world!

What a wonderfully constructive post!  ::)

If new players dont read the manual, that is hardly the fault of the game now is it?

Online Sami

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Re: Confusion Over Range vs Payload
« Reply #6 on: September 16, 2019, 12:19:09 PM »
The new wind element is the most stupid update ever,

Thank you for the feedback, and the tone. There are also very easy arcade games in all genres, but AirwaySim's target is to be a realistic simulation, and the new aircraft performance model introduced in spring 2019 is without a doubt the most realistic and accurate system any aircraft related management game offers. (And the update of the performance model's wind system, introduced only 4 months ago, is too recent to have anything to do on how many players actually join the games.)

If you have any actual thoughts on how to make the system more understandable to you, then please share the thoughts (preferrably over at the feature req. forum).

Offline dandan

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Re: Confusion Over Range vs Payload
« Reply #7 on: September 16, 2019, 12:35:24 PM »
about the tone: Sami, i dont want this to comve of the wrong way, but sometimes - big news to you certainly ;) - you do appear to people as being a bit stubborn... and sometimes then people are frustrated and the tone can be a bit sour. i was annoyed by something a lot of things in AWS a lot of times - sorry about any bitter tone there in any case! - and it is totally understandable that you have to appear stubborn sometimes since there is a vision in your head of how something has to look like and if you adapt to everyones ideas, then that would soon be a big mess.

but maybe thats also something one can try to make AWS better in the future: make workshops in the forums here on how to implement things before the thought process is finished and before any solid work on it starts. maybe not in your interest, i dont know, but a bit of transparency regarding future implementations could be an idea. i think it would be helpful, as said before, to fragment the forums more regarding "feature requests", so that topics are bundled in a better way.


regarding the topic at hand: the wind thing doesnt make the game easier or harder. it is just a set of rules that is a) realistic and b) a really nice addition to penalize props a bit more in the early years especially but i do agree: the information is just not visible easily.

problem: that is, if you know about it and can invest the time to investigate all the effects of it. the reality is: hardly anyone reads manuals. have you read the manual for your car? possibly when something is broken or makes weird noises. so information should be more available that concerns the effects of wind components.
« Last Edit: September 16, 2019, 01:00:06 PM by dandan »

Offline gazzz0x2z

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Re: Confusion Over Range vs Payload
« Reply #8 on: September 16, 2019, 12:37:05 PM »
The wind element prevents unrealistic strategies, as transatlantic 737s - strategies I've used a lot in the past, but that make honestly no sense.

Of course, better readability would be welcome(especially when acquiring planes), Tungstennedge's post shows there is a lack, but the functionality itself is great.

Offline dandan

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Re: Confusion Over Range vs Payload
« Reply #9 on: September 16, 2019, 12:42:22 PM »
proposal 1:

- aircraft data should come with "flying time" additional to "distance" (since basically flying time is convertible into equivalent still air distance)

- aircraft range/payload charts should come with the info on "air time"* (*or whatever the perfect word for it may be),
maybe with a button that lets people swith both pax/kg and nm/h [the click on the page for switch between pax/kg really is annoying for touchscreen-operation ;) ]


Offline dandan

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Re: Confusion Over Range vs Payload
« Reply #10 on: September 16, 2019, 12:47:55 PM »
proposal 2:

- info on equi still air dist/max payload in "search route" window. this way you know right away how far you can get and what payload you can transport. optionally instead of the still air distance, flight time may be helpful (also for aircraft schedule planning)

« Last Edit: September 16, 2019, 12:56:44 PM by dandan »

Offline dandan

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Re: Confusion Over Range vs Payload
« Reply #11 on: September 16, 2019, 12:54:51 PM »
proposal 3:

currently, when you fly a tech-stop-route, you cant really see the distance with wind:
in this case, you need to take the route time it takes and find a different route with the same duration, just to find out what payload you have on that route...

i think that since we are paying all those route-strategies guys, we could really get these extra infos ;)

Offline Mort

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Re: Confusion Over Range vs Payload
« Reply #12 on: September 16, 2019, 12:57:42 PM »
Re. proposal 2 dandan, the problem with displaying a payload percentage is you don't know what aircraft the route will be for at that stage.

Adding columns to route planning/open route pages might be a nice way of displaying that information though, would definitely support that.

I believe Sami is working on a tool that will help with that you mention in proposal 3

Offline dandan

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Re: Confusion Over Range vs Payload
« Reply #13 on: September 16, 2019, 12:59:13 PM »
Re. proposal 2 dandan, the problem with displaying a payload percentage is you don't know what aircraft the route will be for at that stage.

Adding columns to route planning/open route pages might be a nice way of displaying that information though, would definitely support that.

I believe Sami is working on a tool that will help with that you mention in proposal 3

if you check the screenshot, the red above the destinations, there is to be entered a specific aircraft type with engines and weight info

Online groundbum2

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Re: Confusion Over Range vs Payload
« Reply #14 on: September 16, 2019, 01:20:29 PM »
an easy way to show the effect of wind. have a screen where for plane type X leaving airport Y at Z hour a " range circle" would be shown, much like we have now for still air. Of course as winds change by world location and time of day it woudn't be a circle, it would have a circleish shape. Transpose onto a map and major airports and allow us to zoom in so we can explore a possible route, eg heathrow-beijing. On the screen allow us to up/down the time of day and aircraft type so we do what-ifs..

Simon

Offline Mort

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Re: Confusion Over Range vs Payload
« Reply #15 on: September 16, 2019, 01:37:20 PM »
if you check the screenshot, the red above the destinations, there is to be entered a specific aircraft type with engines and weight info

Ooops, missed that!  ;D

Offline dandan

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Re: Confusion Over Range vs Payload
« Reply #16 on: September 16, 2019, 01:40:10 PM »
an easy way to show the effect of wind. have a screen where for plane type X leaving airport Y at Z hour a " range circle" would be shown, much like we have now for still air. Of course as winds change by world location and time of day it woudn't be a circle, it would have a circleish shape. Transpose onto a map and major airports and allow us to zoom in so we can explore a possible route, eg heathrow-beijing. On the screen allow us to up/down the time of day and aircraft type so we do what-ifs..

Simon

great idea!
- proposal 4: slightly more difficult to code programm i guess though...

the range circle thing could be adapted so that it shows the distances not as a circle, since wind speeds are different in different directions obviously.
additionally, different range circles could be displayed: one for maximum payload, one for maximum fuel, one for "regular" payload and one for zero payload.

Offline Talentz

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Re: Confusion Over Range vs Payload
« Reply #17 on: September 16, 2019, 06:14:22 PM »
This issue is truly not how the info is displayed more then its the change made. Prior years and GWs ago, the older playerbase knew what strategies to use to win. Now, some of those strategies just seem foolish now and its left those players standing still as they get blindsided by known events in game (HaF; oil crisis)

The anger comes from the the uncertainly of the true effects of the wind/fuel calculations which, just so were on the same page, we still don't fully know. HaF is the longest GW with the new cals so far (1981) and MT is starting to give us the effects it has on LH routes and strategies. We won't know the full effects for quite some time until some of these GWs end, until then, we just have to deal with it... and some players don't like that.

It's kinda funny; HaF has been a slap in the face to the older playerbase. First it was switching to fast to jets in the late 50s/early 60s, now its switching to jets to slow in the late 70s.  :laugh: :laugh:


Talentz
Co-founder and Managing member of: The Star Alliance Groupô - A beta era, multi-brand alliance.

Offline schro

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Re: Confusion Over Range vs Payload
« Reply #18 on: September 16, 2019, 08:20:37 PM »
To grind an axe on the topic of the wind changes, the whole learning curve that will be required from changing how I've scheduled routes for the past 10 years of playing is one I do not want to spend time with, which is why you see my only small regional airline being in gw4 (oh yes I did) right now. I'm waiting to see polar / optimized flight paths based on wind to show up - until then long hauling is not going to be a pain. It's not that the concept is bad necessarily, I just don't have time to relearn the range capabilities of all the planes.

Online tungstennedge

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Re: Confusion Over Range vs Payload
« Reply #19 on: September 16, 2019, 09:01:41 PM »
Thanks for all the replies everybody, makes sense now. For me, who did ton of long haul in the past, this new change is basically like hey u need up to ten percent more range flying in certain directions now, sometimes more, sometimes less. I'm not a fan but it seems like a minor detail once u know about it, it did ruin my a300 strategy tho.

 

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