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Author Topic: [-] slots - percentage reserved for non-based airlines  (Read 153 times)

Online groundbum2

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[-] slots - percentage reserved for non-based airlines
« on: August 15, 2019, 12:00:05 PM »
Could I suggest that a percentage of slots ONLY be available for airlines not based at the airport. I'm looking at EGLL in GW1 and see this, for a single airline

EGLL-EGCC                             EGLL-EGPF
1835 7 days week                   2130 7 days week
1845 7 days week                   2145  7 days week
1850 7 days week                   2205 7 days week
                                             2210 7 days week
                                             2210 6 days week(!)
                                             2245 7 days week
                                             2250 7 days week

plus 190 other instances at EGLL.

which I would call slot hogging since flights within 60 minutes, but certainly 30 minutes, of each other get penalised by AWS for being too close together.  Weirdly enough these flights seem to disappear, only for long haul flights to appear in their place! But Sami has judged this as  normal commercial behaviour and therefore acceptable.

I would like to suggest that at slot restricted airports that 25% of slots each hour be ONLY available to airlines not based at the airport. The current quota system is clearly not working. Since cargo CBD isn't working properly passenger CBD is obviously a way off yet.

Simon
« Last Edit: August 16, 2019, 03:42:11 AM by Sami »

Offline Tha_Ape

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Re: slots - percentage reserved for non-based airlines
« Reply #1 on: August 15, 2019, 12:16:41 PM »
Just a precision (not about the topic itself)
20 mins intervals work, as I'm using them right now from SIN to DXB, HKG and LHR with success.
Less than that, I don't know.

Offline schro

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Re: slots - percentage reserved for non-based airlines
« Reply #2 on: August 15, 2019, 01:26:20 PM »
So, having started a few small regional airlines in LHR, in general, the slot costs for non based airlines are microscopic at the start and yuge for based airlines. This creates an initial imbalance of slot holdings but ultimately consolidates to lhr based airlines over time.

With respect to the timings that you're showing, if they are from a single airline, then that would likely constitute slot hogging as a rules violation, and you should grind your axe via a pm to Sami to investigate.

Of course, the particular hoggers here aren't taking slots that are especially useful to an LHR based airline as they are of fairly limited use for passenger timings. Cargo at LHR is badly broken as well, so that's unlikely a good use either ..

Offline Mort

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Re: slots - percentage reserved for non-based airlines
« Reply #3 on: August 15, 2019, 04:08:47 PM »
Could I suggest that a percentage of slots ONLY be available for airlines not based at the airport. I'm looking at EGLL in GW1 and see this, for a single airline

EGLL-EGCC                             EGLL-EGPF
1835 7 days week                   2130 7 days week
1845 7 days week                   2145  7 days week
1850 7 days week                   2205 7 days week
                                             2210 7 days week
                                             2210 6 days week(!)
                                             2245 7 days week
                                             2250 7 days week

plus 190 other instances at EGLL.

which I would call slot hogging since flights within 60 minutes, but certainly 30 minutes, of each other get penalised by AWS for being too close together.  Weirdly enough these flights seem to disappear, only for long haul flights to appear in their place! But Sami has judged this as  normal commercial behaviour and therefore acceptable.

I would like to suggest that at slot restricted airports that 25% of slots each hour be ONLY available to airlines not based at the airport. The current quota system is clearly not working. Since cargo CBD isn't working properly passenger CBD is obviously a way off yet.

Simon

Either the offenders have removed the slots (or Sami has acted), or those timings posted aren't there any more?

Offline schro

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Re: slots - percentage reserved for non-based airlines
« Reply #4 on: August 15, 2019, 04:16:11 PM »
Either the offenders have removed the slots (or Sami has acted), or those timings posted aren't there any more?

Historically speaking, if there's not a fine announcement showing up, then the offender has scattered the slots around after holding them. While there will be evidence in the logs of what happened (and plenty of rule references and guidance references saying that such a practice is not a permitted gameplay tactic), I've watched a perpetrator (more than one, and one more than once) get away with it.

Offline Mort

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Re: slots - percentage reserved for non-based airlines
« Reply #5 on: August 15, 2019, 05:32:25 PM »
Historically speaking, if there's not a fine announcement showing up, then the offender has scattered the slots around after holding them. While there will be evidence in the logs of what happened (and plenty of rule references and guidance references saying that such a practice is not a permitted gameplay tactic), I've watched a perpetrator (more than one, and one more than once) get away with it.

The reflowering tulip just happens to be one of the possible suspects at LHR in GW1  :laugh:

Online groundbum2

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Re: slots - percentage reserved for non-based airlines
« Reply #6 on: August 15, 2019, 07:05:46 PM »
the timetable shown earlier was from about a year ago, I kept a saved copy to see what was going on. As several have deduced the 5 minute flights to Glasgow have now metamorphosed into 7 day routings  to South America, JFK etc. Funny how they're not commercial any more. I did ask Sami his thoughts and he couldn't see any issue  ??? One of the factors making this legal was that there was no seat blocking on the DC6s and no oversupply! Really? With AWS putting it's own penalties on <30 departures gosh. Definitely having a helping hand from AWS there...

Simon

Offline schro

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Re: slots - percentage reserved for non-based airlines
« Reply #7 on: August 15, 2019, 09:03:09 PM »
the timetable shown earlier was from about a year ago, I kept a saved copy to see what was going on. As several have deduced the 5 minute flights to Glasgow have now metamorphosed into 7 day routings  to South America, JFK etc. Funny how they're not commercial any more. I did ask Sami his thoughts and he couldn't see any issue  ??? One of the factors making this legal was that there was no seat blocking on the DC6s and no oversupply! Really? With AWS putting it's own penalties on <30 departures gosh. Definitely having a helping hand from AWS there...

Simon

So I suppose the solution is everyone should hog slots that are too close to each other to be realistically flown and then quickly reschedule them to more lucrative routes. That should be fun until it's not/the shoe drops.

Of note, that behavior is specifically banned in the rules, get, is not usually enforced as described here...

Online JumboShrimp

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Re: slots - percentage reserved for non-based airlines
« Reply #8 on: August 15, 2019, 09:17:22 PM »
So I suppose the solution is everyone should hog slots that are too close to each other to be realistically flown and then quickly reschedule them to more lucrative routes. That should be fun until it's not/the shoe drops.

Of note, that behavior is specifically banned in the rules, get, is not usually enforced as described here...

I think that little exploit may have been corrected.

The other day I scheduled a flight at the wrong time, off by 1 hour, tried to move it, but could not...

Online groundbum2

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Re: slots - percentage reserved for non-based airlines
« Reply #9 on: August 15, 2019, 11:33:14 PM »
I suppose now EGPF,EGCC,EHAM and all the other <200nm destinations, that were very commercially attractive and required 5 minute interval service, but are now not quite so commercially attractive, will suddenly become commercial hot property again after the next slot drop at Heathrow?

Simon

Offline Sami

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Re: slots - percentage reserved for non-based airlines
« Reply #10 on: August 16, 2019, 03:42:06 AM »
So, the admin ruling was not to liking, so the issue is taken to "public court"?

So, to sum up EGLL-EGPF:

- The rules state that the routes must be created for normal operations and creating temporary placeholder routes is forbidden.

- The airlines aren't using seat blocking features in a large scale in order to fly a large airplane on a route with small amount of demand. (DC-6 is configured to either about 60 or 90 seat config with standard seats). (ie. have a 200 seater plane blocked to 30 pax, and do that 10 times a day.. That's not happening here.)

- For example the LHR-Glasgow route the airline is supplying a bit less than the actual demand, with no seat blocks or other similar methods, so the route is perfectly valid.  On this sector for example all of his routes have been created ages ago - game year is now 1963 and route creation dates are:
AS3099   1956
AS3049   1956
AS3053   1958
AS3071   1958
AS3075   1958
AS3073   1958
AS3055   1958/1960
AS2807   1956
AS2845   1962
AS2747   1955

..so none of these are recently created, and do not fall into the category of "quickly creating some route in order to swap it later to some 'actual' destination". But instead these have been flown for a very long time already. If there are some flights that are close to each others makes no difference.

If the user would have been routing flights to some dummy destination with no real intention of operating them (nor no "commerical sense" in flying) and then swapped them to some other destination, then we'd be clearly against the rules. But can't see such being done here.

Online groundbum2

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Re: [-] slots - percentage reserved for non-based airlines
« Reply #11 on: August 16, 2019, 04:22:23 AM »
well some public court of course, but more with a decent suggestion to make the game more playable, as I think slots not available to base airlines would enhance the game.

I was gratified that so many experienced players thought this bunching of flights, most likely to hold slots, was against the rules as it made no commercial sense given AWS would penalise the LF of the flights.

Simon

 

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