[ok] Cargo not shifting

[Tha_Ape]

GW#4, SIN-IST

I opened a 757PF route yesterday morning on SIN-IST, but flew this route already for 15 years as pax route, so RI is at 100.
IST has two overlapping airports, Sabiha Gökçen and Bursa. But no route is flown between these and SIN.
Still, 2 months after the creation of the route the HC demand on SIN-IST is still below 10% of potential, and can't be found in any of the nearby airports.

https://www.airwaysim.com/game/Routes/Planning/WSSS/LTBA

[Sami]

Needs more time than just 2 months.

[Tha_Ape]

Needs more time than just 2 months.

More than 2 months while RI is already at 100, and that the HC demand can't be found in any neighbouring airport?

[Tha_Ape]

It has now been 4 days.

HC demand didn't move a single bit.
Still at 680kg, lower than 10% of potential.

[Tha_Ape]

And... Still nothing, no change at all.

Feel like I'm just repeating myself, but there's something wrong here, that's more than obvious.

When you open a new route (not the case here, already RI=100), even if you don't carry much of it until you reach 80-90 RI, cargo shifts early on. Here, nothing. Just 10kg that are due to the economic growth.

Thank you.

Edit: another route, SIN-WUH, with 757PF only, RI = 100, no overlapping airports and no service to any of the closest airports around (triple check). Actual = 50% of potential. There is absolutely no reason this route is not at act = 100 % of pot.

[Sami]

I have a test route running in GW#3 in Mexico, and observing the results over time. (Can't take time for detailed debugging at the moment)

[Tauge]

No screenshots at this time, but I've noticed this too in GW2. I started 4 new routes over 4 months ago in game. RI is over 60 and current demand has not increased total demand is still roughly where it was when I started flying it  MXP-DAL in particular is one I really want to draw attention to, last time I checked there was only one flight from any of the Milanese airports to any of the Dallas area airports, my own.

[groundbum2]

see https://www.airwaysim.com/forum/index.php/topic,79404.msg468109/topicseen.html#msg468109

There's an easy way to prove this is "broken", as I haven't heard Sami say yet he believes it is broken.

Setup a cargo route between two isolated airports, eg MEMPHIS-ST LOUIS. And watch cargo grow to it's maximum possible in a few months, as per what we were promised CBD would do.

Setup a cargo route between two complex airports (where there could be, but isn't competition) eg LAX-JFK, and watch cargo... well sneak up to about 40% of max and stay there until the end of the game. And I would emphasise this is an environment where all the other airports in LAX/NYC are not offering competitor flights. So there's no reason why the cargo doesn't grow to it's max per the CBD spec. Do it in a test environment..

So it works in a simple environment, doesn't in a complex environment. Tells me the code is broken, and passenger CBD is as flyable as the MAX until it's fixed.. or at least acknowledged it's broken.

Simon

[schro]

Maybe the clutch got burned out?

I'm looking at a bunch of new routes in GW4 that I made that have RI up to 60-63 (so that's 6+ game months) that don't look right. Some demand hasn't moved at all while others have moved partially, but nowhere near the prior rate of movement for demand.

The routes are out of FRA and going to places in the US where there are no other airports within their catchment (or if there are, I'm only flying to the larger one)- places like BIL, TYS, SYR, etc.

[MikeS]

see https://www.airwaysim.com/forum/index.php/topic,79404.msg468109/topicseen.html#msg468109

There's an easy way to prove this is "broken", as I haven't heard Sami say yet he believes it is broken.

Setup a cargo route between two isolated airports, eg MEMPHIS-ST LOUIS. And watch cargo grow to it's maximum possible in a few months, as per what we were promised CBD would do.

Setup a cargo route between two complex airports (where there could be, but isn't competition) eg LAX-JFK, and watch cargo... well sneak up to about 40% of max and stay there until the end of the game. And I would emphasise this is an environment where all the other airports in LAX/NYC are not offering competitor flights. So there's no reason why the cargo doesn't grow to it's max per the CBD spec. Do it in a test environment..

So it works in a simple environment, doesn't in a complex environment. Tells me the code is broken, and passenger CBD is as flyable as the MAX until it's fixed.. or at least acknowledged it's broken.

Simon

The thing with "complex" routes is that there is always a "minimum" remaining for any possible combination. That minimum will never shift, so the more complex a route pair the less likely to catch a lot of demand. The UK is a good example: So much overlapping demand, the actual achievable demand is only a fraction of the total.

Mike

[Tha_Ape]

@Tauge: measures made at 60 RI are not really good, as there is usually still a share of cargo that didn't move yet. However in "exclusive" cases, yes, we're reaching almost definitive levels.

@Simon: you might wanna check this bug report, where my experiences in Russia were able to highlight some serious issues that couldn't be fixed until now. Using a remote airport on one side, and 2 overlapping ones at the other end (Vladivostok to NYC + Philly area). Part of what you underline might be related to that as well.
https://www.airwaysim.com/forum/index.php/topic,77996.0.html
Still, I completely agree with you on the fact that the present case is quite obviously a bug / unintended behaviour, and that it doesn't need investigation to be categorized as such, only for the fix.

@Schro:

Maybe the clutch got burned out?

Don't see any other possibility

@Mike: you're right, this is a factor, but what I pointed out in my examples here (SIN-IST and SIN-WUH) or here about SIN-LAX https://www.airwaysim.com/forum/index.php/topic,81130.0.html is that it's nowhere near a few % lost here and there. I'm the guy having the mere 8%, and the rest of the demand is just elsewhere (like the truth...), but not in any other airport.

@Sami: might indeed be the same issue that I posted about in early may, never addressed, that I just mentioned to Mike: https://www.airwaysim.com/forum/index.php/topic,81130.0.html

[connorc17]

Seeing this on multiple cargo routes out of U.S. cities in GW3. Some of these routes were opened a few real life weeks ago and hardly any change in demand. The problem seems to be the HC demand stagnating if anything.

[Tauge]

MXP-SFO is now at 93 RI. I've been building it for around 5 months now. Current demand hasn't changed at all. There's one other airline flying from the Bay area to the Milan area, and they're flying passengers, CS and CL.

[slickwillbo]

Same here. AMS-SMF in GW2, for example

[Tha_Ape]

SIN-HRB in GW#4 adding to the list...

[schro]

All my aforementioned routes are up to a RI of 100 now, no overlapping airports with service, yet, still no movement on demand. The clutch is clearly burnt out - going to have to start wheeling out the skeleton/still waiting memes if this keeps up.

[Tha_Ape]

Here, withholding the opening of new cargo routes...

[Sami]

Appears to be the same issue that's been already reported:

Appears that it might not be possible to fully fix the issue, without making bigger changes to the code which in turn would create potentially unwanted large changes to the demand figures. So changes will take place later with other larger updates.

(closed two duplicate reports at the same time)

But will take a look at this in detail when time permits.

[Tha_Ape]

Appears to be the same issue that's been already reported:

But will take a look at this in detail when time permits.

No idea about how it looks within the code, but from the player point of view (and having studied closely both situation / being the person to report them), it seems a bit different:
 - the "old" bug is triggered when we serve 2 different airports that are overlapping, and we're not able to catch all the demand (total actual demand inferior to exclusive from A + exclusive from B + shared between A and B -> VVO to JFK+PHL example).
 - current bug triggers even when there is no overlap at all (SIN-HRB), or when the overlapping airport is not served (SIN-IST, Sabiha Gökçen and Bursa are not served).

[schro]

Appears to be the same issue that's been already reported:

But will take a look at this in detail when time permits.

I'm not sure how this is a same issue that's already been reporting as cargo shifting was working appropriately just a few weeks to a month ago in many cases. Specific examples being my FRA-China routes have all shifted as expected (actual = potential demand), but the set of routes I created to the US from FRA all have not shifted beyond the default demand that was already there. Something changed or borked between those two sets of routes that I opened, not something that happened in October.

The way I see what's happening right now is that the CBD system is a broken feature...