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Author Topic: FlyEurope announces anti-trust litigation against Noordoost Koninklijk  (Read 680 times)

Offline Tha_Ape

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Re: FlyEurope announces anti-trust litigation against Noordoost Koninklijk
« Reply #20 on: April 13, 2019, 05:30:42 AM »
Now, hope you two will sleep on that fight now that the purpose of these sales is clear: the beneficiary of the sales aren't us (SirMS and me), and our competitors have nothing to fear from these sales to be inserted in a scheme in order for us to make money. So no cheating here.

And what we are doing (ie lease these frames for cheap to a newly established airline) can be considered immoral, surely, however it's 1) completely within the rules; 2) a very, very, very common thing, amongst all alliances and even non-alliances (current GW#4, I started with the help from airlines from 3 different alliances, and one outside any alliance).

Offline [ATA] Lord Branson

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Re: FlyEurope announces anti-trust litigation against Noordoost Koninklijk
« Reply #21 on: April 13, 2019, 06:19:50 AM »
So for clarification purposes.

If you are in an alliance and struggling and likely to go bankrupt, don't sell your planes off to members at alliance minimum.  Leave the alliance and sell your aircraft at absolute minimum price (less than alliance minimum) back to your former alliance members.  This applies to all aircraft we are not just talking about the crappy 707-120s, any aircraft fall within this remit.

As long as the aircraft are flown and not re-sold for profit.

That is the ruling is it?

I am pleased that has been cleared up now, I will inform all our members.

Offline Tha_Ape

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Re: FlyEurope announces anti-trust litigation against Noordoost Koninklijk
« Reply #22 on: April 13, 2019, 06:22:31 AM »
So for clarification purposes.

If you are in an alliance and struggling and likely to go bankrupt, don't sell your planes off to members at alliance minimum.  Leave the alliance and sell your aircraft at absolute minimum price (less than alliance minimum) back to your former alliance members.  This applies to all aircraft we are not just talking about the crappy 707-120s, any aircraft fall within this remit.

As long as the aircraft are flown and not re-sold for profit.

That is the ruling is it?

I am pleased that has been cleared up now, I will inform all our members.

Some of your members were already aware of it ;)

Note: trash-for-cash programs are forbidden, though, iirc.

Offline Zobelle

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Re: FlyEurope announces anti-trust litigation against Noordoost Koninklijk
« Reply #23 on: April 13, 2019, 09:14:31 AM »
So for clarification purposes.

If you are in an alliance and struggling and likely to go bankrupt, don't sell your planes off to members at alliance minimum.  Leave the alliance and sell your aircraft at absolute minimum price (less than alliance minimum) back to your former alliance members.  This applies to all aircraft we are not just talking about the crappy 707-120s, any aircraft fall within this remit.

As long as the aircraft are flown and not re-sold for profit.

That is the ruling is it?

I am pleased that has been cleared up now, I will inform all our members.

I've been known to sell for rock bottom to any and all when busting out before, like my spectacular BK in the old GW2..
With as half useless as 701's are though (ESAD is cruel to jets too) they may have been a tough sell even then.  :D

Online Talentz

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Re: FlyEurope announces anti-trust litigation against Noordoost Koninklijk
« Reply #24 on: April 13, 2019, 09:26:41 AM »
I've been known to sell for rock bottom to any and all when busting out before, like my spectacular BK in the old GW2..
With as half useless as 701's are though (ESAD is cruel to jets too) they may have been a tough sell even then.  :D

Yes, but it wasn't just that. The new fuel calculations is what really hurts the most. You fly payload restricted plus carrying all that fuel on top = not worth it to fly at the edge of range anymore.

But this isn't just a problem with 701s or early jets. This applies to all jets. 762ER @ 6000nm? Yeah, that's not going to work anymore even with overcharging. 737ER? Your kidding right? 752 @ 3500nm TATL? Theirs a new realty about to hit people in the 80s.

LH just got alot harder to turn a profit. Even if those routes eventually turn a profit... low RI will hit you hard for the first 6 game months.

It's a game changer. We just haven't played through it yet.


Talentz
Co-founder and Managing member of: The Star Alliance Group™ - A beta era, multi-brand alliance.

Offline Zobelle

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Re: FlyEurope announces anti-trust litigation against Noordoost Koninklijk
« Reply #25 on: April 13, 2019, 10:08:48 AM »
Yes, but it wasn't just that. The new fuel calculations is what really hurts the most. You fly payload restricted plus carrying all that fuel on top = not worth it to fly at the edge of range anymore.

But this isn't just a problem with 701s or early jets. This applies to all jets. 762ER @ 6000nm? Yeah, that's not going to work anymore even with overcharging. 737ER? Your kidding right? 752 @ 3500nm TATL? Theirs a new realty about to hit people in the 80s.

LH just got alot harder to turn a profit. Even if those routes eventually turn a profit... low RI will hit you hard for the first 6 game months.

It's a game changer. We just haven't played through it yet.


Talentz

I'm enjoying my all LH GW4 Airline all I can while it lasts! And for the record I currently fly 762 out to 7K. That will be no more in the new GW's

Offline [ATA] Lord Branson

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Re: FlyEurope announces anti-trust litigation against Noordoost Koninklijk
« Reply #26 on: April 13, 2019, 10:13:28 AM »
The new 727-100s are going to be interesting as well I think you will find.

Offline Zobelle

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Re: FlyEurope announces anti-trust litigation against Noordoost Koninklijk
« Reply #27 on: April 13, 2019, 10:18:46 AM »
The new 727-100s are going to be interesting as well I think you will find.

I’ve addressed this as I ran into the same issue using Comet 3 which feature similar range characteristics albeit significantly worse financials concerning fuel usage vs useful payload.

Offline gazzz0x2z

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Re: FlyEurope announces anti-trust litigation against Noordoost Koninklijk
« Reply #28 on: April 13, 2019, 10:32:22 AM »
(.../...)
It's a game changer. We just haven't played through it yet.

This. Plenty of veterans used to their own ways will do mistakes, sooner or later. Maybe even me. Even without oppoisition in SGN, if I go LH with the wrong bird, I'm dead.

Offline dandan

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Re: FlyEurope announces anti-trust litigation against Noordoost Koninklijk
« Reply #29 on: April 13, 2019, 10:57:43 AM »
Yes, but it wasn't just that. The new fuel calculations is what really hurts the most. You fly payload restricted plus carrying all that fuel on top = not worth it to fly at the edge of range anymore.

But this isn't just a problem with 701s or early jets. This applies to all jets. 762ER @ 6000nm? Yeah, that's not going to work anymore even with overcharging. 737ER? Your kidding right? 752 @ 3500nm TATL? Theirs a new realty about to hit people in the 80s.

LH just got alot harder to turn a profit. Even if those routes eventually turn a profit... low RI will hit you hard for the first 6 game months.

It's a game changer. We just haven't played through it yet.


Talentz

well, shouldnt Sami provide us some more details on the aircraft in that case? i mean, if an airline buys a plane, they usually know what to expect. but afaik there hasnt been any additional data provided related to these changes.

Offline madflava13

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Re: FlyEurope announces anti-trust litigation against Noordoost Koninklijk
« Reply #30 on: April 13, 2019, 11:15:29 AM »
That would require Sami to tell us for every possible route, since it's specific to each route...

Offline dandan

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Re: FlyEurope announces anti-trust litigation against Noordoost Koninklijk
« Reply #31 on: April 13, 2019, 12:52:42 PM »
That would require Sami to tell us for every possible route, since it's specific to each route...

well, i am quite sure that it isnt route specific but depends on the time airborne. so he could tell us about fuel consumption in relation to flight duration per aircraft type... that would help then

Offline slickwillbo

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Re: FlyEurope announces anti-trust litigation against Noordoost Koninklijk
« Reply #32 on: April 13, 2019, 12:58:01 PM »
And what we are doing (ie lease these frames for cheap to a newly established airline) can be considered immoral, surely, however it's 1) completely within the rules; 2) a very, very, very common thing, amongst all alliances and even non-alliances (current GW#4, I started with the help from airlines from 3 different alliances, and one outside any alliance).

Ah, so here's the strategy.

1. A bankrupting airline leaves its alliance and sells its aircraft privately to former alliance members at the absolute minimum
2. The CEO of the now-defunct airline starts a new airline but does not yet rejoin its former alliance
3. The new CEO leases its aircraft from the former alliance member, but has access to absolute minimum pricing

For example, Boeing 707-120 #060:
1. Bought by Noordoost Koninklijk ($10 750 000)
2. Sold from Noordoost Koninklijk to Buddy Holly Airline ($2 678 000)
3. Leased from Buddy Holly Airline to United Emirate Airways (whose CEO was formerly that of Noordoost Koninklijk)

This is way to transfer the use of assets from a bankrupting airline to your future airline, without the pesky limitations of alliance pricing. And the losers are the competitors of the new airline.


Offline dandan

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Re: FlyEurope announces anti-trust litigation against Noordoost Koninklijk
« Reply #33 on: April 13, 2019, 01:20:10 PM »
Ah, so here's the strategy.

1. A bankrupting airline leaves its alliance and sells its aircraft privately to former alliance members at the absolute minimum
2. The CEO of the now-defunct airline starts a new airline but does not yet rejoin its former alliance
3. The new CEO leases its aircraft from the former alliance member, but has access to absolute minimum pricing

For example, Boeing 707-120 #060:
1. Bought by Noordoost Koninklijk ($10 750 000)
2. Sold from Noordoost Koninklijk to Buddy Holly Airline ($2 678 000)
3. Leased from Buddy Holly Airline to United Emirate Airways (whose CEO was formerly that of Noordoost Koninklijk)

This is way to transfer the use of assets from a bankrupting airline to your future airline, without the pesky limitations of alliance pricing. And the losers are the competitors of the new airline.

and the keyword here: immoral!
15 hail marys and 15 father in heaven for your sins!  :laugh:

we have come a long way from criminal prosecution ;)

Offline groundbum2

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Re: FlyEurope announces anti-trust litigation against Noordoost Koninklijk
« Reply #34 on: April 13, 2019, 05:18:51 PM »
doing this latest thing, leasing your own (as was) plane back again, would I suggest be against the rules, since the transaction was conducted solely to shift money/assets around.

Simon

Offline Sami

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Re: FlyEurope announces anti-trust litigation against Noordoost Koninklijk
« Reply #35 on: April 13, 2019, 05:25:27 PM »
Indeed. The scheme as whole is clearly against the rules and administration will take necessary actions soon (holidays slowing down a bit though). (= parties involved can expect a message from me soon, and for now I would STRONGLY advise not to continue with the a/c transactions)

Thread is locked for now.

Offline Sami

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Re: FlyEurope announces anti-trust litigation against Noordoost Koninklijk
« Reply #36 on: April 14, 2019, 01:37:47 PM »
The administration has reviewed this case and decided that the actions as a whole in this case have been against the game rules, since the combination of first leaving the alliance, selling your assets at absolute minimum prices to the former alliance mates, then restarting with a new airline and leasing back the same aircraft(*) at minimum prices (707 leases at around 60-80k month, vs. approx 120-130k from the AI brokers) and planning to re-join the alliance again later on is, as a whole, unacceptable and not fair play.

Note that we're looking at the combination of everything here. Just selling your assets and bankrupting to leave the game isn't wrong itself. And it's been rather standard for alliances to co-operate with aircraft purchases in order to get better deals, and many alliance members also like to act as aircraft brokers which is encouraged. But here the aircraft have been just rotated between two airlines of the same player with the help of other alliance members and with minimum financial impact for everyone and while the receiving airline hasn't actually yet joined the alliance (and left it before asset sales & bankruptcy/restart)...

But since this isn't a major offence and the gains for the new airline aren't financially that great, the ruling is that the aircraft leased cheaply to the new airline are changed so that the monthly lease price is approximately the same what AI brokers would have supplied. Also a one-time Company Image penalty of 30pts is issued to United Emirate Airways.

(*) = Same or similar a/c. There were also a couple of other a/c privately listed to this airline.


Also as a reminder: If someone has any reports or doubts about other players, one should not post in public right away. As sometimes these cases require no actions and are within the rules, and it's not good to right away accuse other players in public before administration has had the chance to review the case. Any penalties or other measures are anyway always made public by the administration.

 

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