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Author Topic: [-] Aircraft age limit of 35 years  (Read 914 times)

Offline mp81

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[-] Aircraft age limit of 35 years
« on: March 20, 2019, 02:14:30 AM »
Can someone explain why there is a 35 year limit on aircraft? I've engaged with this simulation for almost 10 years now and I don't think I have once seen a reasonable explanation as to why it is not allowed. Maybe I haven't paid attention.
« Last Edit: March 20, 2019, 11:59:01 AM by Sami »

Offline Talentz

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Re: Aircraft age limit of 35 years
« Reply #1 on: March 20, 2019, 02:24:22 AM »
Because it's not financaly worth it. The cost system built, just doesn't work for old aircraft. Besides, added realism like decreasing fuel efficiency as a plane ages, among others, truly make fly very old aircraft just a hobbies wet dream.

Talentz
Co-founder and Managing member of: The Star Alliance Group™ - A beta era, multi-brand alliance.

Offline wilian.souza2

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Re: Aircraft age limit of 35 years
« Reply #2 on: March 20, 2019, 03:09:26 AM »
It doesn't answer mp's question actually. Of course older planes can be expensive to maintain, but  there's no reason to set a hard limit of 35 years for the aircraft that can be used in the game. There are many examples of RL airlines using old jets like 727s, MD80s, Fokker 100s and so on

Offline Infinity

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Re: Aircraft age limit of 35 years
« Reply #3 on: March 20, 2019, 03:29:16 AM »
Because the Sami Aviation Authority, SAA, deems them dangerous to fly.

Offline Zobelle

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Re: Aircraft age limit of 35 years
« Reply #4 on: March 20, 2019, 05:30:42 AM »
I’ve been questioning this as in new GW’s there are now fuel efficiency penalties for flying old tin cans.

This change should allow for a softening of the mx cost curve and to that end add life to old aircraft since cargo doesn’t care about flying in old metal.

Offline Talentz

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Re: Aircraft age limit of 35 years
« Reply #5 on: March 20, 2019, 09:00:01 AM »
It doesn't answer mp's question actually. Of course older planes can be expensive to maintain, but  there's no reason to set a hard limit of 35 years for the aircraft that can be used in the game. There are many examples of RL airlines using old jets like 727s, MD80s, Fokker 100s and so on

The cost model is based off a 35 yr cycle, that's what I mentioned
Quote
The cost system built, just doesn't work for old aircraft.

This is why Maint cost are so high past the 2nd D Check and why aircraft are hard coded to die at 35yrs.

I’ve been questioning this as in new GW’s there are now fuel efficiency penalties for flying old tin cans.

This change should allow for a softening of the mx cost curve and to that end add life to old aircraft since cargo doesn’t care about flying in old metal.

Perhaps when other more important features and gameplay are addressed, their can be a discussion about extending an aircraft's life past 35yr. But as of now, their is no viable reason outside of self gratification to fly a 50yr old aircraft.


Talentz
Co-founder and Managing member of: The Star Alliance Group™ - A beta era, multi-brand alliance.

Offline Zobelle

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Re: Aircraft age limit of 35 years
« Reply #6 on: March 20, 2019, 11:31:26 AM »
There’s plenty of viable reasons to fly aircraft for extended periods of time. It’s wasteful to have to dump aircraft between D2/D3 to remain competitive.

The current mx model as you mentioned makes it obnoxiously expensive to fly even the most popular types past 16y/D2 and suicide past 24y/D3. I honestly see no reason why this could not be softened to allow for at least one more D check cycle of flying in pax service at reasonable mx costs as well as allow those older frames to fly cargo out to ~45yrs if one dares such a venture.
« Last Edit: March 20, 2019, 11:34:32 AM by Zobelle »

Offline Tha_Ape

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Re: Aircraft age limit of 35 years
« Reply #7 on: March 20, 2019, 11:39:15 AM »
Yeah, probably not the most urgent feature, but definitely a nice one.

Quoting Sami about the start of GW#2:
Or CV-340s for that matter like already said. That thing worked up until 1980s in the real life!)

And another one:
(the CV-340 can be converted into CV-440 which flew as piston-powered "original 50s machine" into the early 1980s back here [before being replaced by F.27s])

Not to mention the DC-3 still flying today here and there, or the DC-8, etc.

Yes, it should be a niche, but RL allows a use for these, and I think the game should allow it under certain circumstances.

Offline Zobelle

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Re: Aircraft age limit of 35 years
« Reply #8 on: March 20, 2019, 11:42:56 AM »
Yeah, probably not the most urgent feature, but definitely a nice one.

Quoting Sami about the start of GW#2:
And another one:
Not to mention the DC-3 still flying today here and there, or the DC-8, etc.

Yes, it should be a niche, but RL allows a use for these, and I think the game should allow it under certain circumstances.

Well yes, aircraft that were not pressurized by design should definitely be given a pass on “too old” as in real life.

Offline Sami

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Re: Aircraft age limit of 35 years
« Reply #9 on: March 20, 2019, 11:55:42 AM »
The 35 year life limit is a core design decision made early on and the cost structures and various financial features are based on this assumption. No plans to change it for now, and can't see any big benefits of that either in the game play (vs. effort required to do the changes).

Ref. my quote of CV-340/440s ... They were built around 1950-1951 or so and retired in 1982 if I remember, so that's 32 years..

(And yes, there are always the certain exceptions to the case)

Offline Tha_Ape

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Re: Aircraft age limit of 35 years
« Reply #10 on: March 20, 2019, 12:08:36 PM »
The 35 year life limit is a core design decision made early on and the cost structures and various financial features are based on this assumption. No plans to change it for now, and can't see any big benefits of that either in the game play (vs. effort required to do the changes).

Ref. my quote of CV-340/440s ... They were built around 1950-1951 or so and retired in 1982 if I remember, so that's 32 years..

(And yes, there are always the certain exceptions to the case)

 :P :P ;)

CV crashing in 2004: https://www.ntsb.gov/investigations/AccidentReports/Reports/AAR0603.pdf

CV crashing in 2012: https://www.ntsb.gov/investigations/AccidentReports/Reports/AAR1404.pdf

(not contesting, just mocking, and not seriously :))
« Last Edit: March 20, 2019, 12:11:02 PM by Tha_Ape »

Offline Zobelle

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Re: Aircraft age limit of 35 years
« Reply #11 on: March 20, 2019, 12:12:19 PM »
The 35 year life limit is a core design decision made early on and the cost structures and various financial features are based on this assumption. No plans to change it for now, and can't see any big benefits of that either in the game play (vs. effort required to do the changes).

Ref. my quote of CV-340/440s ... They were built around 1950-1951 or so and retired in 1982 if I remember, so that's 32 years..

(And yes, there are always the certain exceptions to the case)

This decision then appears to have been made before cargo, yes?

And as an inclusive a fuel consumption increase has been added for new games on aging aircraft (yes, irl this is a factor) however no relief was given on the mx side to nullify or at least soften this now added cost to using older aircraft.

Offline gazzz0x2z

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Re: Aircraft age limit of 35 years
« Reply #12 on: March 20, 2019, 01:16:14 PM »
(.../...)

You don't get Sami's answer : the cost-to-benefit ratio is not worth it. When he says "The 35 year life limit is a core design decision"; it means that he'd have to rewrite a good part of the game from scratch just to allow another value - or another way of counting. With all the bug risks and balancing issues that come with it. Probalby something as challenging(and with similar delays) as CBD, for a very limited use.

The 35 years value is of course not perfect, but if the whole game engine is built upon it, it's just not gonna change.

Offline Zobelle

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Re: Aircraft age limit of 35 years
« Reply #13 on: March 20, 2019, 02:14:38 PM »
You don't get Sami's answer : the cost-to-benefit ratio is not worth it. When he says "The 35 year life limit is a core design decision"; it means that he'd have to rewrite a good part of the game from scratch just to allow another value - or another way of counting. With all the bug risks and balancing issues that come with it. Probalby something as challenging(and with similar delays) as CBD, for a very limited use.

The 35 years value is of course not perfect, but if the whole game engine is built upon it, it's just not gonna change.

I understand this part, but rather than just write it off it should be at least be taken into consideration as a possibility for the next major upgrade. TBH cycles/hours would be a better measure of wear on an aircraft. Multiple short hops and thus pressurization cycles will obviously place more wear and require more frequent (and over a measure of time more expensive) mx than one used for long haul.

Offline Sami

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Re: [-] Aircraft age limit of 35 years
« Reply #14 on: March 20, 2019, 02:21:06 PM »
A/C life limit per fleet group per cycles/hours is something to consider but we'd need some real data to back it up and to consider it first. (separate thread pls if enough data is available somewhere?)

Offline Polaris92

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Re: [-] Aircraft age limit of 35 years
« Reply #15 on: March 20, 2019, 04:36:44 PM »
So if I was to store a DC-3 for the entirety of a game, once it got to 35 years old would it disappear from my list of owned aircraft?

Offline Talentz

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Re: [-] Aircraft age limit of 35 years
« Reply #16 on: March 20, 2019, 04:38:15 PM »
No, you just can't use it in revenue service. However, if you want to A/B/C/D check it, the system will allow you too :)



Talentz
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Offline Tha_Ape

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Re: [-] Aircraft age limit of 35 years
« Reply #17 on: March 20, 2019, 04:40:33 PM »
No, you just can't use it in revenue service. However, if you want to A/B/C/D check it, the system will allow you too :)



Talentz

Yay! I wonder what will be the price of a D on a 80 years old DC-3 ::)

 

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