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Author Topic: [-] London City Incorrect runway Length  (Read 128 times)

Offline jezbanks

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[-] London City Incorrect runway Length
« on: December 05, 2018, 05:14:08 PM »
The game lists Airbus  A318-100 as LCY approved, but with the 2006 runway length of 1199m this type cant actually be much use.

In fact LCY had the runway extended in 1992 to just over 1500m, which does allow the A318 to operate successfully from the airport

Can we have the runway length corrected please
« Last Edit: December 05, 2018, 06:33:09 PM by Sami »

Offline Sami

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Re: London City Incorrect runway Length
« Reply #1 on: December 05, 2018, 06:32:32 PM »
Negative; not a bug, the length is correct.

(This has been reported a couple of times before; https://www.airwaysim.com/forum/index.php/topic,71295.msg412678.html#msg412678)


Edit: See AIP, chapter 2.13 / Declared distances: http://www.ead.eurocontrol.int/eadbasic/pamslight-D5971F9B1FD6135D316EF10FF4C808E3/7FE5QZZF3FXUS/EN/AIP/AD/EG_AD_2_EGLC_en_2018-09-13.pdf

In reference to AIP link above - what is TORA vs TODA? See here: http://aviationthrust.in/wp-content/uploads/2015/12/TORA-TODA-ASDA-LDA1.jpg  (LCY is case B/E; cannot use clearway for takeoff run..)

LCY is a rather special case in this sense too.
« Last Edit: December 05, 2018, 06:41:49 PM by Sami »

Offline jezbanks

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Re: [-] London City Incorrect runway Length
« Reply #2 on: December 06, 2018, 09:35:39 AM »
I know the distance between TODA and TORA - I am an air traffic controller currently dual rated between Stansted and London City

Airbus A318 operates irl, but not AWS

What you are not including is the starter extensions, 27 has a longer T/O distance that 09, due to the shorter starter extension on 09

The usable runway for 27 is 1385m - want a video of a loaded A318 getting airborn?
« Last Edit: December 06, 2018, 09:50:20 AM by jezbanks »

Offline Sami

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Re: [-] London City Incorrect runway Length
« Reply #3 on: December 06, 2018, 09:50:02 AM »
A318 can be flown from LCY in AWS. Payload limited to about 80 pax (City to Shannon).

(I see in real life it is equipped with 32 first class seats only so I don't know what the actual real life max payload would be - but in that area AWS calculated values might differ a bit - but in any case i can be flown from there)

Edit: extensions? Did not see this in the AIP data? (Looked only text pages.. I mean if there is some extended bit then shouldn't that be included in the TORA, or is that some special case again here?)
« Last Edit: December 06, 2018, 09:53:13 AM by Sami »

Offline jezbanks

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Re: [-] London City Incorrect runway Length
« Reply #4 on: December 06, 2018, 11:01:36 AM »
Each end has a starter extension.
Agree text in AIP seems odd (actually got the paper copy out to reference).

If you look at the aerodrome chart you will see the starter extensions.
These are not technically runway but they are used during t/o to allow for additional roll.

They should (if my understanding is correct) be included in the TORA (as the distance for 04 is at stansted for example despit the shorter runway distance of 2700m compared to 3000m for 22)
« Last Edit: December 06, 2018, 11:16:59 AM by jezbanks »

Offline gazzz0x2z

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Re: [-] London City Incorrect runway Length
« Reply #5 on: December 06, 2018, 01:21:28 PM »
(I see in real life it is equipped with 32 first class seats only so I don't know what the actual real life max payload would be - but in that area AWS calculated values might differ a bit - but in any case i can be flown from there)

So maybe the problem is more demand structure... Right now in GW3, 98% of demand is economic.  Does not sound right to me, considering the airport, errrrrrrrm, specifics.

Offline Tha_Ape

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Re: [-] London City Incorrect runway Length
« Reply #6 on: December 06, 2018, 01:49:11 PM »
So maybe the problem is more demand structure... Right now in GW3, 98% of demand is economic.  Does not sound right to me, considering the airport, errrrrrrrm, specifics.

Got me a magic carpet E-195 E2 ready in 2 days game time if this gets implemented ::)

Offline Sami

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Re: [-] London City Incorrect runway Length
« Reply #7 on: December 08, 2018, 09:25:24 PM »
Took a longer look at the AIP and cannot get the figures to make sense.

- The runway strip is physically 1508m. This is the part from twy A to twy M.

- For 27 LDA per AIP is 1319m (from THR 27 to THR 09), and ASDA is the same. TODA is 1385m and TORA 1199m
- For 09 LDA is LDA/ASDA also 1319, but TODA 1319m and TORA 1199m.

- AIP mentions the RESA at 27 being 190m long and at 09 120m. This is to my understanding the yellow area from A westwards near THR 09 and from M eastwards at 27s end but the measurements given in AIP do not fully match the drawing of the AD chart? In any case RESA is not part of usable length.

So the actual usable runway from THR 09 to THR 27 is 1319m which is the LDA. However the TORA should be the same but it is only 1199m and this is the most limiting factor here. My only guess is that since the RESA is shorter than recommended 240m by regulations the usable takeoff run needs to be made shorter (i.e. the RESA will penetrate the runway area to make it long enough for caculation purposes). But really can't figure it out if that's the case here or something else.

In any case the "official" word is that 1199m is the takeoff length that's available. But looking and measuring from the ADC the actual distance available from 09 from int. A to the runway end (THR 27) is about 1400m. So there must be some catch why it is reported only as 1199m since the extra strip (stopway) outside runway available for takeoff roll is always reported as part of the TORA distance in all normal cases!

(Too bad we don't have LCY airport data at our performance calculation software at work, would have been easy to check it from there.)
« Last Edit: December 08, 2018, 09:37:40 PM by Sami »

Offline Sami

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Re: [-] London City Incorrect runway Length
« Reply #8 on: December 08, 2018, 09:39:56 PM »
Hah, why didn't I Google: https://www.pprune.org/tech-log/262769-lcy-london-city-declared-distances.html
Quote
Nope, the width is insufficient to support more than 1199m declared (the docks get in the way). Too late and too tired from a good weekend to give the specifics just now.

...
Now less tired, and simply in need of a good weekend, so:
The runway is a Code 2 runway, maximum value for the greater of TODA or ASDA 1200m, as the width of the runway strip is less than 150m (150m would take it out over the docks and one requirement of the runway strip is that it must be load-bearing). It is greater than 75m, which is the requirement for a Code 2 instrument runway.

It's all in CAP168.

Of course this isn't any official answer, but would be logical and corresponds to the AIP.

 

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