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Author Topic: Mega Hubs are Unbalanced  (Read 1024 times)

Offline tungstennedge

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Mega Hubs are Unbalanced
« on: October 27, 2018, 05:29:40 AM »
I've only played in two real game worlds, and my first was only for a few years before I got kicked for inactivity, but currently I'm playing in GW3, and Ive noticed that starting in mega hubs seems unreasonably powerful. I started originally in Shanghai in gw3, has going well and having steady growth, but when shanghai pudong opened my base moved with it despite demand staying in honqiao and I had to BK, so I choose to restart in London. Despite being nearly a year behind, I found a route with a couple thousand un-taken demand immediately, and I was not only instantly profitable, but I grew so fast, that now only my company is like ten months old vs the nearly two years of most I am already 11th in net revenue, and my fleet is growing as fast as I can lease planes. First of all, I am not good at this game at all. I have a strictly longhaul fleet and only manage 17 hrs a day of utilization (Could easily get another flight a week on most planes if I found a way to tile schedules less lazily), yet I seem to be preforming way too well. I started in Japan, China, and a smaller European airport before, and could never even get close to this kind of growth. I don't know if this is just because competition hasn't come in yet, but right now it seems unlikely that there could be enough competition to slow down my growth- my net operation margin is over 30% and was as high as 45% before I started opening tons of routes yet to capture route image, and at least for the next few years I dont see how companies that started in smaller regions are supposed to catch up.

Anyways, I'd like to know what everyone else thinks about the power of megahubs, they honestly seem very op. I know the score is calculated using half factors which dont scale off size, but those efficiency factors- there is no reason why a large company based in a megahub cant do those as well as a smaller one. Basically what Im saying, is a really wish a form of city based demand was constructed for passengers as soon as possible, and preferably passenger transfers would be a possible thing to setup, including tranfer times and such being considerable factors, meaning players could actually use strategiec locations to their advantage, making aspects of real airline such as banking departure times, and related cost and such a factor, basically it would take alot more thought to setup routes than lets open 100000 tabs to look for open demand and then mindlessly take it up- I could prabably code a bot that could play this game better than i could since it would infinite patience with searching for demand and calculating the best schedule and planes to use. Yeah, basically I'd like to know what everyone else thinks about mega hubs, am I just naive and dont know the competition to come, or are they just really easy?

Thanks, Tungstennedge

Offline groundbum2

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Re: Mega Hubs are Unbalanced
« Reply #1 on: October 27, 2018, 08:20:57 AM »
mega hubs are where the money's at . If you look at Elite in GW3, they have the top 10 spots for just about everything, and they always start in a large airport. It's where the traffic is. ATL,LHR,FRA,JFK,Tokyo, LAX,ORD rule the game.

There's also the out of base penalty, where AWS only lets you keep a small number of planes out of HQ base. So it makes sense to start at a large airport so you don't hit the out of base limit quite so quickly. The worst thing to do is start at a small airport, then expand to a large airport and run into the out of base limit.

You'd think the megahubs would also attract a lot of competition from the other end. But if players start at the megahub then dominate all the routes out to the smaller airports, people at the smaller airports look to go to the hub but realise it's already 200% supplied so go elsewhere.

Depends what game you want to play. Some people prefer to find a tier 2 airport and play a more sedate game not getting squashed by the big guys. Because it does get ferocious where the big people put 8x737s on a 400 demand route, flying them capped at 50 seats or grabbing slots just to block others.

S

Offline Zobelle

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Re: Mega Hubs are Unbalanced
« Reply #2 on: October 27, 2018, 04:48:23 PM »
Or park 20 Viscounts on a 1K route and wreck anyone flying 737’s. I can make money flying half full, but I bet the 737 guy gets wrecked running 20-25%LF

Offline schro

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Re: Mega Hubs are Unbalanced
« Reply #3 on: October 27, 2018, 05:09:18 PM »
So, couple things that happen in the beginning of a game world -

1. Significant amounts of unsupplied demand exist across the entire game world, allowing higher than usual profit margins.
2. Said demand takes many game years to fill in due to A. The scarcity of planes on the used market B. Delivery rates of new planes and 3. Well, need more planes.
3. Game world demand scales based upon number of expected players - if the Beginner's world is what you're used to, demand is scaled for a smaller number of players.
4. LHR has a significnant amount of demand (and premium demand) to a lot of places.
5. Game world settings tend to be very easy to start - low fuel relative to revenue, staffing costs are lower and so on. These grow over the course of the game (and fuel just goes on a booze filled bender).
6. Due to #2, you can also price significantly higher than standard pricing and fill your planes, wen combined with #5, you get outsized profit margins.

So, what I'm saying, is hold my beer and let us know what you think in 5-10 game years once the demand is saturated, costs are up and you have competition everywhere. That's the point in the process where you figure out the number and magnitude of mistakes you made during the game's easy years....

Offline deovrat

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Re: Mega Hubs are Unbalanced
« Reply #4 on: October 27, 2018, 05:24:20 PM »
To above ^ post, I would also add one last point:

7. Fleet transitions: The larger you grow, the more cautious you have to be about a) Choosing the right fleet to replace your metal b) Planning ahead to acquire the said fleet in the numbers you want, and c) Avoiding the 4th fleet penalty while doing so.
At the number of fleet LHR airlines can grow to, the fleet penalty can catch someone unawares far more quickly. Experienced players have felt the shove too.

Of course, this above point may not be especially important in your specific case, as GW3 is about half the duration of other major gameworlds, so multiple fleet transitions aren't envisioned; but this is more of a general comment.

Offline MikeS

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Re: Mega Hubs are Unbalanced
« Reply #5 on: October 27, 2018, 05:42:41 PM »
I think slot costs have been quite low in GW3 making fast expansion easier than usual

Offline chwatuva

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Re: Mega Hubs are Unbalanced
« Reply #6 on: October 27, 2018, 06:01:35 PM »


There's also the out of base penalty, where AWS only lets you keep a small number of planes out of HQ base. So it makes sense to start at a large airport so you don't hit the out of base limit quite so quickly.

Anybody else think an interesting change would be the bigger your starting airport, the smaller the number of aircraft you can base elsewhere and vice versa?

Offline Tha_Ape

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Re: Mega Hubs are Unbalanced
« Reply #7 on: October 27, 2018, 10:07:25 PM »
Anybody else think an interesting change would be the bigger your starting airport, the smaller the number of aircraft you can base elsewhere and vice versa?

Not convinced it would work, but the idea is interesting and could be worth a try. In some special mini-game.

Actually I think there should be more mini-games with special settings to try out new ideas. At least for the ones that can easily be implemented. Maybe with less players than usual (less commercial, but also less time-consuming for the developer who's only trying uncertain new stuff).

Offline Talentz

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Re: Mega Hubs are Unbalanced
« Reply #8 on: October 27, 2018, 11:38:07 PM »
We all ready had a lower demand threshold start then normal, which was a welcomed change.

In the future, the starts for both pax and cargo will be harder and more frustrating flying from crowded RL hubs....

As Night Owl says, come back in 15yrs and tell us how you dominated your competition :)


Talentz
Co-founder and Managing member of: The Star Alliance Group™ - A beta era, multi-brand alliance.

Offline Karl

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Re: Mega Hubs are Unbalanced
« Reply #9 on: October 28, 2018, 12:40:42 AM »
Anybody else think an interesting change would be the bigger your starting airport, the smaller the number of aircraft you can base elsewhere and vice versa?

I made the "mistake" of starting out in a level 2 airport.  This helped me get started, but now I am paying for it.  Most of my other bases are doing well.  They need more aircraft, but I am reaching my non-base aircraft limit.  On top of that, I am running out of airports to serve from my HQ. 

It would be nice if an airline could "move" its HQ maybe once per game.

On the other hand, it is what it is.  There are strategies that I can employ in the current game: I have to try to replace smaller aircraft with larger ones.  Perhaps I will have to close the smallest non-HQ base. 

Offline tungstennedge

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Re: Mega Hubs are Unbalanced
« Reply #10 on: October 29, 2018, 02:53:29 AM »
So, couple things that happen in the beginning of a game world -

1. Significant amounts of unsupplied demand exist across the entire game world, allowing higher than usual profit margins.
2. Said demand takes many game years to fill in due to A. The scarcity of planes on the used market B. Delivery rates of new planes and 3. Well, need more planes.
3. Game world demand scales based upon number of expected players - if the Beginner's world is what you're used to, demand is scaled for a smaller number of players.
4. LHR has a significnant amount of demand (and premium demand) to a lot of places.
5. Game world settings tend to be very easy to start - low fuel relative to revenue, staffing costs are lower and so on. These grow over the course of the game (and fuel just goes on a booze filled bender).
6. Due to #2, you can also price significantly higher than standard pricing and fill your planes, wen combined with #5, you get outsized profit margins.

So, what I'm saying, is hold my beer and let us know what you think in 5-10 game years once the demand is saturated, costs are up and you have competition everywhere. That's the point in the process where you figure out the number and magnitude of mistakes you made during the game's easy years....

Interesting, I have never experienced the pinch before, hopefully I wont fail realize my failures too bad :P However, I have a plan for fleets into the future atleast, so hopefully I can figure out how things work later on. Another thing Im wondering, is you said demand scales off the number of expected players. So does this mean demand increases with the number of players in the gameworld? Also how does demand grow over time, I have never played long enough to really observe this, does it grow one by one day by day, and before you know it there is demand, or does in increase every now and then by a significant amount? Like for example lhr to lax has 5k demand right now, If there were still 400 players in 2018, what would the demand look like? And if the number of players dropped to like 200 how would that chance things?

Sorry I have a lot of questions but I'm just curious :P

Offline gazzz0x2z

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Re: Mega Hubs are Unbalanced
« Reply #11 on: October 29, 2018, 08:12:50 AM »
So does this mean demand increases with the number of players in the gameworld?

nope

Also how does demand grow over time, I have never played long enough to really observe this, does it grow one by one day by day, and before you know it there is demand, or does in increase every now and then by a significant amount?

it's slow, but real. When I was playing 737-700ER across the pond, after 15-20 years, some line had grown enough to make the plane too small, and I had to give up the line(I had no very large to take the place).

Offline schro

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Re: Mega Hubs are Unbalanced
« Reply #12 on: October 29, 2018, 10:47:17 AM »
Demand doesn't scale as the game is played based upon players as the game is played, but rather is set at the onset of the game world.

Offline Cardinal

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Re: Mega Hubs are Unbalanced
« Reply #13 on: October 30, 2018, 12:32:02 AM »
mega hubs are where the money's at . If you look at Elite in GW3, they have the top 10 spots for just about everything, and they always start in a large airport. It's where the traffic is. ATL,LHR,FRA,JFK,Tokyo, LAX,ORD rule the game.

[...]

Depends what game you want to play. Some people prefer to find a tier 2 airport and play a more sedate game not getting squashed by the big guys.

Paradoxically, my most successful games are the ones where I HQ at a tier-2 or smaller airport. I may not be on any top ten lists but I'm also not constantly hemorrhaging cash because I have a dozen competitors for every single route. Things are far less stressful in Greensboro, Dayton and Pittsburgh than Atlanta, Tokyo and London.

Offline tungstennedge

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Re: Mega Hubs are Unbalanced
« Reply #14 on: October 30, 2018, 05:02:19 AM »
I can see the fun in enjoying medium-sized airline/bases, but I've always played strategy/ management games like AWS purely for maxing out the scoring system, and I've realized that large bases make it seem much easier to do so, at least at first.

Offline Tha_Ape

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Re: Mega Hubs are Unbalanced
« Reply #15 on: October 30, 2018, 07:07:35 AM »
I can see the fun in enjoying medium-sized airline/bases, but I've always played strategy/ management games like AWS purely for maxing out the scoring system, and I've realized that large bases make it seem much easier to do so, at least at first.

Mega-hubs doesn't necessarily means top score.
Current top ten in GW#2 (a GW that's running for a long time now, things have more or less stabilized)
Russia / Sheremetyevo (me ;D)
China / Shanghai Pudong
Australia / Sydney
Iran / Tehran
Europe (post Open Skies) / Rome Fiumicino
Europe / Palma de Mallorca
USA / Las Vegas
Europe / Paris CDG
Turkey / Istanbul
USA / O'Hare

Then, in the top 20, you also have a 2nd Russian airline, one in Europe / Poland, one in Brazil, etc.

So basically, things will be hard when running an airline from the 3rd world, yes. But mega-hubs don't always take it all, a well managed relatively large airport in a 2nd tier country also gives access to it.

Offline gazzz0x2z

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Re: Mega Hubs are Unbalanced
« Reply #16 on: October 30, 2018, 08:24:29 AM »
EU open skies and the new out-of-bases rules allow for easier scoring as a minor starter, like myself in Poland. I had no opposition from the demise of my opponent in 1970, and from 2004, could land where I wanted in Europe, targetting places where demand was scarce. My previous GW3 in Algeria, I scored 12th, after having in the top 10 for most of the game - but there's a limit to the number of airframes you can fly from Algeria.

I'm now trying even harder, starting in MPL, and trying to cover a max number of overseas territories. This time, if I'm top 50, I'm very glad. I'm currently 120th but should improve.

 

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