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Author Topic: Enable ABCBA and ABCA routes (under certain circumstances)  (Read 210 times)

Offline wilian.souza2

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Enable ABCBA and ABCA routes (under certain circumstances)
« on: September 21, 2018, 11:16:13 PM »
I, as a new player, have never played this game when ABCBA routes were enabled. Just read on this forum about it and how it was abused in the past to create shadow hubs, so eventually it was disabled.

But being stuck with ABA routing leads to some annoying drawbacks:

1) When a new airport in the destination end opens and has much bigger demand than the former airport, you realize you have to buy 3, 4, 5 aircraft to fly only to that city - sometimes too much aircraft, just because you have to allocate aircraft in all of your bases which the demand to that specific destination has grown!

2) You have some aircraft with a lot of free time to fly to an specific destination from the base it's in, and there's also demand from that same destination to another base - but you can't use that airliner even to fly from where it's in to the destination because of curfew;

3) You have a lot of cargo flights in which the return leg is actually a ferry flight.

For the first and second situations, ABCBA routing could be handy, and for the third situation ABCA routing could be a good idea.
« Last Edit: September 22, 2018, 03:01:39 AM by wilian.souza2 »

Offline wilian.souza2

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Re: Enable ABCBA and ABCA routes (under certain circumstances)
« Reply #1 on: September 22, 2018, 02:45:39 AM »
Here's how ABCBA routing could help improve scheduling:

Both A and B bases have some demand to C. You want to open a flight from A to C, but you find out you can't open it because, let's say, the aircraft will return at a time the airport A is closed because of a curfew; however, base B is open 24h and you could use your aircraft to fly A-B-C, so you do it for your outbound leg. Then, at B you'll set your turnaround and program the return flight from C to B and from B to A; the resulting flight block will help improve your average aircraft utilization.

ABCBA routing should be allowed - but ONLY in cases where A and C are airports where the airline is based in.

ABCA routing can be useful for routes with very asymmetrical demand, like cargo flights. Any airline wishing to create a route like this should have bases in A and B and this routing scheme should be allowed only for cargo flights.

ABCA routing should be allowed - but ONLY in cases where A and B are airports where the airline is based in and the flight is a cargo flight.

The diagram below shows how these routings can be useful:

« Last Edit: September 22, 2018, 03:06:27 AM by wilian.souza2 »

Online JumboShrimp

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Re: Enable ABCBA and ABCA routes (under certain circumstances)
« Reply #2 on: September 22, 2018, 03:34:24 AM »
Maybe it is just me, but the gains from this are extremely low and complexity is extremely high.

Offline dandan

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Re: Enable ABCBA and ABCA routes (under certain circumstances)
« Reply #3 on: September 22, 2018, 06:04:22 AM »
Maybe it is just me, but the gains from this are extremely low and complexity is extremely high.

i think the possibility is great. i proposed this a while ago: https://www.airwaysim.com/forum/index.php/topic,77076.0.html

importantly though, i would NOT allow any passengers/cargo to be transported from B to C or C to B, only the payload from A to B/C or from B/C destined for A should be carried. that would remove the possibility of creating "shadow hubs", but enable flights to smaller airports by bundling them together: flight from LHR to SJO, then continue to the near PTY, helps filling the plane, covering two destinations with just a little de-tour.

Offline Zobelle

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Re: Enable ABCBA and ABCA routes (under certain circumstances)
« Reply #4 on: September 22, 2018, 06:19:29 AM »
Also remove tech stop penalty for these special routes.

Offline dandan

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Re: Enable ABCBA and ABCA routes (under certain circumstances)
« Reply #5 on: September 22, 2018, 06:25:20 AM »
Also remove tech stop penalty for these special routes.

well, yes, the techstops generally should be considered in the flight-time, maybe add a slight penalty, but certainly nothing in the dimensions of what it is now. like for ABCBA, there should be no penalty at all for B, since for them, the flight to A is a nonstop flight. for ABCA, both B and C have one techstop to reach/to be reached from A, so half a penalty. etc. etc.

Offline Zobelle

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Re: Enable ABCBA and ABCA routes (under certain circumstances)
« Reply #6 on: September 22, 2018, 09:00:16 AM »
I mean when using an aircraft suited for the mission (VL type, but falls short on range.)

Offline dandan

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Re: Enable ABCBA and ABCA routes (under certain circumstances)
« Reply #7 on: September 22, 2018, 09:08:29 AM »
I mean when using an aircraft suited for the mission (VL type, but falls short on range.)

if there is no competition, i agree. if there is competition that is faster, passengers should prefer slightly the nonstop service

Offline wilian.souza2

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Re: Enable ABCBA and ABCA routes (under certain circumstances)
« Reply #8 on: September 22, 2018, 01:24:08 PM »
I would NOT allow any passengers/cargo to be transported from B to C or C to B, only the payload from A to B/C or from B/C destined for A should be carried. that would remove the possibility of creating "shadow hubs"

the techstops generally should be considered in the flight-time, maybe add a slight penalty, but certainly nothing in the dimensions of what it is now. like for ABCBA, there should be no penalty at all for B, since for them, the flight to A is a nonstop flight. for ABCA, both B and C have one techstop to reach/to be reached from A, so half a penalty. etc. etc.

The concept for ABCBA routing I propose doesn't consider B as a techstop, but the destination itself. It's an alternative to 2 route pairs: ABCBA <=> ABA + BCB. Hence, it wouldn't be considered a flight able to carry passengers from A to C and C to A.

And the possibility of shadow-hubbing is eliminated by the fact that, as A and C must be the airline's bases, all legs in the flight connect a base to the destination airport.

The ABCA routing like I propose consists of this equivalency: ABCA <=> AB - BA + BC - CB + CA - AC. In this case, A and B must be airline's bases also to prevent shadow-hubbing.

Please note that in any of these cases, B is considered an intermediate stop either.

Maybe it is just me, but the gains from this are extremely low and complexity is extremely high.

An airline with 1000+ aircraft, 5+ bases and high profit margins won't care much about some inefficiencies, but for an airline with 200- aircraft operating in a country with lots of curfewed airports and a domestic market not too strong (like Mexico), these inefficiencies can become a trouble. So these special routings can help them gain slightly more profit margin.

« Last Edit: September 22, 2018, 01:37:55 PM by wilian.souza2 »

Offline dandan

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Re: Enable ABCBA and ABCA routes (under certain circumstances)
« Reply #9 on: September 23, 2018, 08:00:37 AM »
ok, i got it, so its a slightly different thing, since you are basically proposing the traffic between two basis with stops in non-base-airports in the middle. so yes, the ABCBA with bases in A and C can be quite useful for the perfect timing of flights, like if someone would imagine an airline with bases in A LAX and C JFK and making a destination in B STL, so one can time the aircraft better.

Or like LH did it for a while, to not have longhaul aircraft based in DUS for additional costs, they flew the plane from MUC to JFK to DUS and from DUS back to JFK and MUC. (Which will get into an issue with aircraft size basing limits maybe).

Offline atma83

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Re: Enable ABCBA and ABCA routes (under certain circumstances)
« Reply #10 on: September 23, 2018, 01:47:57 PM »
But why limit it to having A & C as a base?

You should be able to fly A-B-C-...-Z even if you only have a base at A. It's just a matter of whether or not you can transport passengers on the intermediate sectors (say B-C). This basically boils down to whether it's a domestic flight or an international one, and in the latter case on the 3rd/4th/5th freedoms that are applicable.

Pre-1970s most longer flights (and many shorter ones as well) had a stopover or four. With the low demand numbers of the yesteryear simulated, I see no reason why a proper multi-segment torture shouldn't be.

Offline dandan

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Re: Enable ABCBA and ABCA routes (under certain circumstances)
« Reply #11 on: September 23, 2018, 06:17:16 PM »
But why limit it to having A & C as a base?

You should be able to fly A-B-C-...-Z even if you only have a base at A. It's just a matter of whether or not you can transport passengers on the intermediate sectors (say B-C). This basically boils down to whether it's a domestic flight or an international one, and in the latter case on the 3rd/4th/5th freedoms that are applicable.

Pre-1970s most longer flights (and many shorter ones as well) had a stopover or four. With the low demand numbers of the yesteryear simulated, I see no reason why a proper multi-segment torture shouldn't be.

i absolutely agree. no transporting of passengers between the intermediate non-base-destinations, but else, it should work.

Offline wilian.souza2

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Re: Enable ABCBA and ABCA routes (under certain circumstances)
« Reply #12 on: September 24, 2018, 01:36:56 AM »
But why limit it to having A & C as a base?

You should be able to fly A-B-C-...-Z even if you only have a base at A. It's just a matter of whether or not you can transport passengers on the intermediate sectors (say B-C).

It's a reasonable questioning, but in AWS there are 2 problem with ABC...XYZ routing where only A is the base:

- It will be not applicable to international flights, as it will incur in 5th and 8th freedoms of the air, not allowed in the game (https://www.airwaysim.com/game/Manual/Routes/Freedoms/);

- This type of routing can be widely abused if it's allowed without restrictions, as it will permit you to open hundreds of routes out from your headquarters without need to open more bases. Restricting ABCBA routing for traffic between 2 bases with one stop at a non-base airport in the middle will be the most acceptable solution, as it will keep the essential ABA routing currently allowed.

Offline Zobelle

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Re: Enable ABCBA and ABCA routes (under certain circumstances)
« Reply #13 on: September 24, 2018, 03:00:01 AM »
Personally, what id like to see if being able to combine demand between bases say HNL-GRU Route has 150 demand but that makes barely profitable direct, if I can swing by MIA (another base of mine) and pick up another 150 to fill a DC10 without tech stop penalty that’d be wonderful. At the same time if this can meet the demand between MIA-HNL then even better! Drop some pax off, pick some up.

 

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