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Author Topic: Small airports overload  (Read 240 times)

Offline Hotcliff

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Small airports overload
« on: September 16, 2018, 09:41:36 AM »
Sami,
This is just another example of "abuse" in this Sim. How can it be allowed to overflow a small airport from Frankfurt to Split with 2 B737-100's each with a seating capacity of 96 px when Split has only average demand of 49 px/day ?
Take "Tulip" for example..
How can his route be near profitable  with 22% PLF..10px/day on average?

How can I, based in Split, ever compete with these "Moguls" with CI 100 and 93 respectively? :'(

I think there should be a limit on "overflow" small airports...This is not fair play..

Or should I go in with 3 Be99-Airliners 3x17 px daily and beat them both with my CI 33..what would my profitability be after buying those at 5,1M$ and adding 6 pilots, ground crew and admin, and maybe get 15 px/day?

It is ridicolous this  >:(
« Last Edit: September 16, 2018, 10:11:41 AM by Hotcliff »

Offline Sami

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Re: Small airports overload
« Reply #1 on: September 16, 2018, 10:24:00 AM »
Without having checked in detail who flies what, per rules each airline is allowed to supply up to 200% of the total demand. So ~55 demand * 2 = 110, and two airlines = 220 supply in total and that is still fully ok. If there were a third airline the total supply could be even 330.. And so forth. That's the theoretical allowed maximum.

Though in this case it might be that the one airline is over the limit by himself, and in that case the oversupply rule checker automation will take care of that.

Just put a 30-seater on that route and I guess you can steal a good chunk to yourself too, as grossly oversupllying the route does not give any real benefit.
« Last Edit: September 16, 2018, 10:27:23 AM by Sami »

Offline Hotcliff

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Re: Small airports overload
« Reply #2 on: September 16, 2018, 10:31:08 AM »
Without having checked in detail who flies what, per rules each airline is allowed to supply up to 200% of the total demand. So ~55 demand * 2 = 110, and two airlines = 220 supply in total and that is still fully ok. If there were a third airline the total supply could be even 330..  That's the theoretical allowed maximum. Though in this case it might be that the one airline is over the limit by himself, and in that case the oversupply rule checked automation will take care of that.
Thanks for your reply Sami,
Well, unfortunately they both seem to be ’within limits” according to the rules then, but it is sad for us ”small guys” that they do this without profitability  :'(
Anyway, maybe I just will try to challenge them both with 3 Be99 Airliners..it would be interesting to see what happens..IF there are slots available in Frankfurt  ;D

Take care and have a nice Sunday, and keep up the good work!
I love this Sim, with a few things annoying me  ;)
/Stefan

Online schro

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Re: Small airports overload
« Reply #3 on: September 16, 2018, 12:15:44 PM »
In my case, I'm making about $7000-8000 per round trip. Don't forget to consider the fra-split cargo has about 1000kg/day available (much higher than the other way). Adding the BE99s will certainly take passengers from us, but still leave all the standard cargo alone....

Offline Hotcliff

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Re: Small airports overload
« Reply #4 on: September 16, 2018, 12:23:16 PM »
In my case, I'm making about $7000-8000 per round trip. Don't forget to consider the fra-split cargo has about 1000kg/day available (much higher than the other way). Adding the BE99s will certainly take passengers from us, but still leave all the standard cargo alone....
Ok I give you that cargo then  :laugh:
We will see what I can do about the confused px..hope they don’t mind rambling across the alps in heavy turbulence in a cramped,unpressurized Be99 compared to your B737!  Maybe I could advertise the trip as ” the only thing left to do in life” or something like that?   :laugh:

I WILL do it, just to see how the game mechanic’s work  ;D
« Last Edit: September 16, 2018, 12:31:29 PM by Hotcliff »

Online schro

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Re: Small airports overload
« Reply #5 on: September 16, 2018, 12:34:59 PM »
Based on game mechanics, if you fly one at that level of demand, you'll be close to full after ri becomes 100 (most likely). Fly a second and both will probably be half empty, maybe 1/3 empty if you're lucky. Fly the three proposed and they will likey be less than half full....

Ninja edit: your ci wont have a huge impact given the heavy Y tilt for demand and short distance...

Offline Hotcliff

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Re: Small airports overload
« Reply #6 on: September 16, 2018, 12:40:01 PM »
Based on game mechanics, if you fly one at that level of demand, you'll be close to full after ri becomes 100 (most likely). Fly a second and both will probably be half empty, maybe 1/3 empty if you're lucky. Fly the three proposed and they will likey be less than half full....

Ninja edit: your ci wont have a huge impact given the heavy Y tilt for demand and short distance...

Yes, I guess you are right..better go for the unspoiled destinations here  ;D

”When I find myself in times of trouble, Mother Mary comes to me
Speaking words of wisdom, let it be
And in my hour of darkness she is standing right in front of me
Speaking words of wisdom, let it be
Let it be, let it be, let it be, let it be
Whisper words of wisdom, let it be..”

 :)

Offline gazzz0x2z

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Re: Small airports overload
« Reply #7 on: September 16, 2018, 12:46:46 PM »
The thing is that big boys in big airports are mainly concerned about themselves. And are trying to clean up the place to have no opposition on site. When you're in a smaller HQ(as I do in GW2 from Warsaw), you just know you can't compete. You have to fly smaller birds and spreadout for uncharted territories - where demand is low, but opposition unheard of.

Offline Hotcliff

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Re: Small airports overload
« Reply #8 on: September 16, 2018, 01:17:40 PM »
The thing is that big boys in big airports are mainly concerned about themselves. And are trying to clean up the place to have no opposition on site. When you're in a smaller HQ(as I do in GW2 from Warsaw), you just know you can't compete. You have to fly smaller birds and spreadout for uncharted territories - where demand is low, but opposition unheard of.
Yes gazzz, I am sure you are right.
They can never compete with my Be99’s regionally, and it makes me happy  :)
My best generating Be99 with 5 short routes/day is making a steady 100,000$/wk..more than most of my F27’s..and today I can order them at 1,7M$ from Beechcraft..This is good profitability in my eyes  ;)

Offline JumboShrimp

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Re: Small airports overload
« Reply #9 on: September 16, 2018, 02:10:27 PM »
This is just another example of "abuse" in this Sim. How can it be allowed to overflow a small airport from Frankfurt to Split with 2 B737-100's each with a seating capacity of 96 px when Split has only average demand of 49 px/day ?

Just because the aircraft is bigger, it does not mean that more passengers will chose it.

Take "Tulip" for example..
How can his route be near profitable  with 22% PLF..10px/day on average?

How can I, based in Split, ever compete with these "Moguls" with CI 100 and 93 respectively? :'(

If you see 2 players killing each other, the best strategy is to just step back and let them.  You don't have to compete, and out compete everybody on every route.

I think there should be a limit on "overflow" small airports...This is not fair play..

Or should I go in with 3 Be99-Airliners 3x17 px daily and beat them both with my CI 33..what would my profitability be after buying those at 5,1M$ and adding 6 pilots, ground crew and admin, and maybe get 15 px/day?

It is ridicolous this  >:(

You can win by not participating in that particular death match.  The worst thing you can possibly do is base the strategy of your airline on "winning" an unwinnable route, going as far as investing money.

Just look for routes that can bring the highest return with the smallest investment, not the smallest return with the biggest investment.

Offline Hotcliff

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Re: Small airports overload
« Reply #10 on: September 16, 2018, 02:39:34 PM »
Just because the aircraft is bigger, it does not mean that more passengers will chose it.

If you see 2 players killing each other, the best strategy is to just step back and let them.  You don't have to compete, and out compete everybody on every route.

You can win by not participating in that particular death match.  The worst thing you can possibly do is base the strategy of your airline on "winning" an unwinnable route, going as far as investing money.

Just look for routes that can bring the highest return with the smallest investment, not the smallest return with the biggest investment.
Thanks Jumbo,
You really nailed it for me, the question I have had for so long..There are no benefits in struggling for a major airport with this situation but there are a lot of lovley small ”virgins” on the countryside to take care of with the proper equipment  ;D
« Last Edit: September 16, 2018, 02:42:29 PM by Hotcliff »

Offline Tulip Air CEO

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Re: Small airports overload
« Reply #11 on: September 16, 2018, 08:21:15 PM »
I had no Oversupply warning,but just below it,incase it drop i blocked seats to 104.
What you have to see in demand Hotcliff is like a pie beeing equally split up if all are in same CI,RI.
Then the share is getting more tunned by pricing and seats used by the planes and not to forget timming.
Amsterdam from Split is even worse with 54 demand and 187 supply,why you only say FRA?

So if all these are equal and demand is 66,then all 3 gett 22 seats and if 1 have 100 CI,2nd 93CI and the 3rd 33CI,then the sharing also change,same counts for the route image.
No body is doing anything wrong here,this happens at all big airports and done by all kinds of levels of players.
With London Heathrow for example have a better demand then Frankfurt from Split and no one flying at the moment yet,why you not try to open a flight there,if you like a Mainport in your network?it is only 827nm,within range of a F27 in your fleet?

PS:if you schedule your planes very economically then the LF can be lower to still be profitable as costs are lower too.
     See you start to play this game since may 8th this year,Bankrupt 4 times,so you are very new,so maybe it would be a good idea to avoid the big mainports untill you gett a little further in the game and start to understand more of the game dynamics(just advise,not a negative comment)


Offline Hotcliff

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Re: Small airports overload
« Reply #12 on: September 16, 2018, 10:22:17 PM »
I had no Oversupply warning,but just below it,incase it drop i blocked seats to 104.
It does not matter any longer since I can not change the over-supply rules. However, you still don’t explain why you are running this route with 36 of 104 seats filled ?? For me that would be a disaster.

Offline Tha_Ape

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Re: Small airports overload
« Reply #13 on: September 16, 2018, 10:32:02 PM »
It does not matter any longer since I can not change the over-supply rules. However, you still don’t explain why you are running this route with 36 of 104 seats filled ?? For me that would be a disaster.

2 things:
 - as Gazzz and JS said, they are fighting each other, not you. For that reason, what one flies, the other will fly as well.
 - actually, in the 70s, some routes can be profitable with really low LFs (this sim is good but not perfect).
« Last Edit: September 16, 2018, 11:08:10 PM by Tha_Ape »

Offline Hotcliff

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Re: Small airports overload
« Reply #14 on: September 16, 2018, 10:44:24 PM »
2 things:
 - as Gazzz and JS said, they are fighting each other, not you. For that reason, what ones fly, the other will fly as well.
 - actually, in the 70s, some routes can be profitable with really low LFs (this sim is good but not perfect).
Yes I understand this but don’t understand why this ”cockfight” should be taking place on such an inferior route as Frankfurt-Split.. As the rules are now, it completely locks out the small companies from growing a little more which is not good at all for the ”gameplay”  :-\

Online schro

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Re: Small airports overload
« Reply #15 on: September 16, 2018, 10:55:41 PM »
It does not matter any longer since I can not change the over-supply rules. However, you still don’t explain why you are running this route with 36 of 104 seats filled ?? For me that would be a disaster.

The game follows history from the perspective of economics. Expenses were far lower compared to revenue in the early days compared to the modern era. Cost of plane acquisition, staff, fuel and most everything else cost less. Over time, as ticket revenue increases, the unit costs increase faster, shrinking the margin of profitability. Add that the 732 is a very efficient plane for the era that's viable well into the 90s and 2000s, it makes a 40 seats sold plus some cargo a sustainable route in the present time. The same route with a similar size plane 30-50 years later would result in a loss.

If expenses increased too quickly then those still on first gen jets or dc6s (snicker) would be toast at this point,which is also not realistic.

Offline Hotcliff

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Re: Small airports overload
« Reply #16 on: September 16, 2018, 11:07:18 PM »
If expenses increased too quickly then those still on first gen jets or dc6s (snicker) would be toast at this point,which is also not realistic.
Roger that schro, it makes it maybe a little bit easier to understand then, so I will drop the subject and ignore those routes completely. There are still odd little routes to pick for us living in the ”outskirts” of the main hubs.
« Last Edit: September 17, 2018, 12:49:24 AM by Hotcliff »

Offline gazzz0x2z

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Re: Small airports overload
« Reply #17 on: September 17, 2018, 06:08:51 AM »
(.../...)However, you still don’t explain why you are running this route with 36 of 104 seats filled ?? For me that would be a disaster.

Basically, the fight for dominance works best when you deprive opposition of any place to breath. You fly everywhere above 100% of demand. As FRA is slot constrained, you have to use large planes as well. Using mediums would be suicide in their case - but not in yours. When 2 excellent players are facing each other, the result is that their HQ is more or less a deadly area, unless you fly far smaller birds than they do(and can find slots, which is not a given).

Fly elsewhere. My first 3 games were in Glasgow, Edinburgh, and Detroit. I learned a lot there. Only after my game in Detroit(where I finished first by far in JFK) I knew I was ready for playing the big boys. Which I did in CDG. Today, I have far less time to play(baby with special needs + work duties), so I'm playing smaller areas. Might try Tahiti next GW3 - insanely hard, but not really time consuming. Algiers was faaaaar too easy fo my tastes.

Offline Hotcliff

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Re: Small airports overload
« Reply #18 on: September 17, 2018, 06:15:37 AM »
Morning gazzz,
Yes it seems like it is the best strategy and besides the slots are hard to find at those places. Also I find the whole gameplay more rewarding without huge competition..my blood pressure  ;D
Tahiti sounds interesting but very hard I would guess  :laugh:

Offline Tulip Air CEO

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Re: Small airports overload
« Reply #19 on: September 17, 2018, 08:51:33 AM »
Like Gazz mentioned FRA is slot constraigned and Owl and Me are the main reason for it with others not even have 15%of the slots to share for.This is also 1 of the reason we can fly on lower demand routes as most we just have to battle eachother and we both have a good stock of the best plane in this era for regional flights:B737-200 series

Yugoslavia is a nice country to start with,but be aware that it will fall aparte in the late 80's and you have to bring the bases all back to the country of Head quaters for example Croatia.
So if 1 of your bases is in Serbia,you will gett a couple of years to reorganize.so you also have to think of the future  :)

As FRA is slot constrained, you have to use large planes as well. Using mediums would be suicide in their case - but not in yours. When 2 excellent players are facing each other, the result is that their HQ is more or less a deadly area, unless you fly far smaller birds than they do(and can find slots, which is not a given).

Fly elsewhere. My first 3 games were in Glasgow, Edinburgh, and Detroit. I learned a lot there. Only after my game in Detroit(where I finished first by far in JFK) I knew I was ready for playing the big boys. Which I did in CDG. Today, I have far less time to play(baby with special needs + work duties), so I'm playing smaller areas. Might try Tahiti next GW3 - insanely hard, but not really time consuming. Algiers was faaaaar too easy fo my tastes.

 

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