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Author Topic: [-] Launch Discount minimum order  (Read 921 times)

Offline Zobelle

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[-] Launch Discount minimum order
« on: April 18, 2018, 02:59:25 AM »
It should be increased to 40 units to prevent troll orders and have discount go to airline that can actually use it.
« Last Edit: June 19, 2018, 06:00:40 PM by Sami »

Offline MikeS

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Re: Launch Discount minimum order
« Reply #1 on: April 18, 2018, 04:51:57 AM »
Or grant the discount to all airlines ordering within the first month of launch. That would give everyone a chance (not everyone uses twitter).

Offline Tha_Ape

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Re: Launch Discount minimum order
« Reply #2 on: April 18, 2018, 08:26:58 AM »
I do not agree.

80 to 90% of the launch customer discount for most wanted models go at 35-40+ frames and are purchased by us large airlines.
On the 10-20% that remains, there might be trolling sometimes (Taleeeeentz? ;D) but there might also be smaller companies that happen just to be lucky as it's not the 4th time they logged in today, companies that aren't capable of ordering 40 frames but are still solid companies.
For 10 to 20%, us big boys often online, maybe we could drop the case, don't you think?

Plus, it doesn't reflect real life. Examples:
 - the A320. In June 81, at the Paris Air Show, Air France put a pre-order for 25+25. But those are still only 25 on firm order.
 - the 737 Jurassic. 21 orders from Lufthansa in February 65.
Etc.

Online Cedric3108

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Re: Launch Discount minimum order
« Reply #3 on: April 18, 2018, 10:59:29 AM »
I don't think a minimum is quite the way to go, but maybe it would be an option to discount the first 100 frames or so (for large production models, maybe 20-30 for niche models), no matter how big the very first order is. This would also reflect real life where often a new frame is launched with orders from multiple airlines and it's even not clear who will receive the very first frame.

Greets,
Cedric

Offline Tha_Ape

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Re: Launch Discount minimum order
« Reply #4 on: April 18, 2018, 11:29:37 AM »
Cedric's proposal makes more sense, in my opinion.
Maybe one step further: one airline could get only one discount (50 planes max) even if that said airline orders 100 frames. Would support the idea of a group of customers.

As for the total number of frames discounted, could be according to size class rather than popularity, because popularity changes from GW to GW.

Online JumboShrimp

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Re: Launch Discount minimum order
« Reply #5 on: April 18, 2018, 11:38:34 AM »
Maybe AWS can add a twist to the launch process:

1. Instead of a model launch announcement, we would get solicitations to become launch customer.
2. The product would not launch until an actual customer for 40x order commits with a down payment
3. The launch discount would start at 10% and would go up 1% per month until, let's say 50%.
4. If no launch customer is found, the product does not launch

If min order for launch is increased to 40, the max at the launch discount (or any order for that matter) should increase to 100 (from 50).

Offline Tha_Ape

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Re: Launch Discount minimum order
« Reply #6 on: April 18, 2018, 12:19:33 PM »
@ JS

What you mean is that from the current 10% we're getting on max 50 frames, we'd now get a progressive discount from 10% up to 50% on 100 frames, potentially for one single customer? Plus the 20% of "large order" and the potential 6% of deposit, you'd get part of those 100 planes for 24% of their value.
Don't you want the planes for free? ;)
What I mean is that the launch customer is statistically a gift to hard players that are often online, players with no difficulties whatsoever, and that would just make the gift bigger. And the smaller airline potentially managing to get its hands on a part of those 100 discounted frames would be proportionally disadvantaged twice: once from the smaller discount for "large order", once from the smaller order to the increasing discount.

And another aspect: your point 2 and 4 don't really make sense to me. Good aircrafts always receive orders, bad aircrafts don't always do, but I'm not sure what improvement your proposal would bring to the current system. Could you clarify that point, please?

Online JumboShrimp

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Re: Launch Discount minimum order
« Reply #7 on: April 18, 2018, 01:43:03 PM »
@ JS

What you mean is that from the current 10% we're getting on max 50 frames, we'd now get a progressive discount from 10% up to 50% on 100 frames, potentially for one single customer? Plus the 20% of "large order" and the potential 6% of deposit, you'd get part of those 100 planes for 24% of their value.

The size of order would be up to the player (40x to 100x).

The discount would be as it is currently (large order discount, up to 20% + launch customer discount).

As far as Launch Discount, it would be taken in most cases on day 1 for popular models (Hence, no change in discount).  But for unpopular models, the launch discount would just keep ticking up, 1% per month, up to 50%, making it more appealing (and rewarding) for player to go with an unpopular aircraft.

What I mean is that the launch customer is statistically a gift to hard players that are often online

Which is precisely the reason for the request.  A player can grab the discount with minimum order as has just happened in GW3 within last game year with 777-8X, 777-9X, A333-800neo, A333-900neo, with minimum commitment.  These are easy all easy to sell aircraft.

, players with no difficulties whatsoever, and that would just make the gift bigger. And the smaller airline potentially managing to get its hands on a part of those 100 discounted frames would be proportionally disadvantaged twice: once from the smaller discount for "large order", once from the smaller order to the increasing discount.

I am not sure I follow.  A regional airline can do the same with regional aircraft.

Also, since this would apply to 1 out of 300 players, more proper way to call it is a reward for 1 out of 300 players, rather than a penalty for 299 of 300 players.  If I never even considered ordering a fleet, how am I penalized for not participating in launch discount?

And another aspect: your point 2 and 4 don't really make sense to me. Good aircrafts always receive orders, bad aircrafts don't always do, but I'm not sure what improvement your proposal would bring to the current system. Could you clarify that point, please?

1. Larger Minimum order (affects mainly popular aircraft): Getting Launch discount would need larger dollar amount, meaning some planning and commitment (rather than taking advantage of Twitter notifications).
2. Larger Launch discount (would affect very unpopular aircraft): Player who wants to experiment with unpopular aircraft (A380, 744, Russian aircraft) could do so with a larger discount for a large order.  As is, hardly anybody commits to these fleets, and they go out of production shortly after they go into production.
3. To make the launch process more similar to RL
« Last Edit: April 18, 2018, 02:07:10 PM by JumboShrimp »

Online Cedric3108

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Re: Launch Discount minimum order
« Reply #8 on: April 18, 2018, 02:15:54 PM »
Quote
As for the total number of frames discounted, could be according to size class rather than popularity, because popularity changes from GW to GW.

I also considered that, but in the end having 50 B767s discounted most likely means still only the very first guy will get the discount. While having 100 Baades discounted means that every single one ever ordered will get "launch customer" discount. I guess Sami must have some good data that can tell him which aircraft sell well (on average) and which don't. Also it shouldn't be overly complicated. Having three classes: high, medium, low sales volume should suffice. With 100, 50, 20 aircraft discounted or something like that.

I also really like JS's process, as it is close to reality. But I think a static minimum of 40 planes is way too high, especially for smaller airlines that need cheap niche aircraft. Those aircraft might never get produced in this system, which means they also have to buy the more popular ones. Those that cannot afford will have to BK. I would suggest that while the discount goes up, the minimum order volume goes down. Maybe on an alternating basis, every two game weeks. So one time 1% more discount, the next 1 aircraft less minimum order, and so on... If after 30 months no customer is found, the aircraft won't be produced. So in the end it would be 40% discount and a minimum order of 10. The aircraft that doesn't sell then, probably shouldn't be build...

Offline Zobelle

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Re: Launch Discount minimum order
« Reply #9 on: April 18, 2018, 03:55:37 PM »
Maybe AWS can add a twist to the launch process:

1. Instead of a model launch announcement, we would get solicitations to become launch customer.
2. The product would not launch until an actual customer for 40x order commits with a down payment
3. The launch discount would start at 10% and would go up 1% per month until, let's say 50%.
4. If no launch customer is found, the product does not launch

If min order for launch is increased to 40, the max at the launch discount (or any order for that matter) should increase to 100 (from 50).

I can dig it.

Online JumboShrimp

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Re: Launch Discount minimum order
« Reply #10 on: April 18, 2018, 06:13:56 PM »
Just to add, being a launch customer is by definition "discriminatory".  Only airlines with deep pockets can participate.

It's nothing about the player, everything about the airline.  My GW3 airline has financial resources to be a launch customer for any aircraft.

OTOH, my GW1 airline is so poor it can't be a launch customer for a luggage cart.

Online Cedric3108

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Re: Launch Discount minimum order
« Reply #11 on: April 18, 2018, 06:33:42 PM »
Well under the current system that is true for modern western aircraft. But a lot of airlines can be launch customer for an AN-140 at the moment, but not a many of typical AN-140 customers can buy 40 of them at once, even if discounted. So it would worsen the outlook for these aircraft as well as their customer base even more.

Offline MikeS

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Re: Launch Discount minimum order
« Reply #12 on: April 18, 2018, 07:03:38 PM »
OTOH, my GW1 airline is so poor it can't be a launch customer for a luggage cart.

Those VC10 Luggage carts at HKG are gushing cash, you'll be rich soon  ;)

Offline Zobelle

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Re: Launch Discount minimum order
« Reply #13 on: April 18, 2018, 07:50:07 PM »
Well under the current system that is true for modern western aircraft. But a lot of airlines can be launch customer for an AN-140 at the moment, but not a many of typical AN-140 customers can buy 40 of them at once, even if discounted. So it would worsen the outlook for these aircraft as well as their customer base even more.

Perhaps a reduction of launch customer discount for each unit under 40. If you order 10, you get 2.5%.

If you order the whole 40 then you get 10% max launch discount.

Offline Tha_Ape

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Re: Launch Discount minimum order
« Reply #14 on: April 19, 2018, 11:08:51 AM »
@ Shrimp

Ok, sorry, now I understand what you mean. Seems that sometimes (and apparently when we agree the most) we both have difficulties understanding each other :laugh:

1°) I agree on the progressive increase of the discount if no one orders the plane in the first place.

2°) You mention 40 to 100 (size of the order). Per game mechanics, the current max order is 50 and I think it's fine, but we can discuss that point.

3°) I don't agree on the larger minimum order (40) to get the discount. There is definitely some flaws in the current system, as you underline it, but I think it's so rare and anecdotal for most wanted models that it doesn't require a change, and that it allows more possibilities for not so wanted models.

4°) I kind of like the idea of spreading the discount between airlines (say, 100 discounted frames max, but the max per airline is 50 discounted frames).

5°) Cedric's proposal (different number of discounted frames according to the popularity of the make) is not completely convincing as such, but it nonetheless quite interesting.

----------

Quote
1. Larger Minimum order (affects mainly popular aircraft): Getting Launch discount would need larger dollar amount, meaning some planning and commitment (rather than taking advantage of Twitter notifications).

True and false. Would require both money and time spent online (thus even less player would be able to gain something from the launch customer discount). Would target only the richest and most online players, ie 5 top players of each alliance. Not really fair.

Quote
Also, since this would apply to 1 out of 300 players, more proper way to call it is a reward for 1 out of 300 players, rather than a penalty for 299 of 300 players.  If I never even considered ordering a fleet, how am I penalized for not participating in launch discount?

"Bonus" for one or "penalty" for 299, isn't it the same thing considered from a different angle? See my comment just above: even less players than today would be in capacity of getting a launch discount.

 

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