AirwaySim
Online Airline Management Simulation
Login
Username
Password
 
or login using:
 
My Account
Username:
E-mail:
Edit account
» Achievements
» Logout
Game Credits
Credit balance: 0 Cr
Buy credits
» Credit history
» Credits FAQ

Author Topic: [-] Adding options Re-engine, Re-certifify etc  (Read 1065 times)

[-] Adding options Re-engine, Re-certifify etc
« on: February 04, 2018, 05:25:34 PM »
The game has made a lot of progress recently by allowing plane upgrades (DC-8-60s-70s), freight conversions and further back, hushkits.

That's great, but I think it paves the way for a step further as well, to allow for re-engining/adding fuel tanks/re-certifying certain aircraft.

One of the pet peeves with this game for example is that leasing brokers buy new aircraft that are always bottom spec, when the requirements of a diverse airline mean that a 600nm 737-100 is practically useless. In such an instance, it would be physically possible to do something about it. That's not the only example where difficult to use planes are available.

IRL, planes can be upgraded, to varying degrees, and indeedd are done all the time. Obviously, this wasn't really possible before but now the system has been changed, would it be possible towards looking into implementing something like this. At the very least, the ability to play around with MTOW would be highly useful, reasonably cheap and would operate in the same way as if you were picking the weight variant on ordering.
« Last Edit: December 18, 2019, 07:46:51 PM by Sami »

Offline JumboShrimp

  • Members
  • Posts: 8040
Re: Adding options Re-engine, Re-certifify etc
« Reply #1 on: February 12, 2018, 03:08:15 AM »
This would be fantastic!

If it happens in RL at least occasionally, I think it would be great to add it to AWS.  There is so much aircraft on UM that would be usable, but currently it is nearly unwearable.

For example, last 2 days, I have monitored the 777-200ER on UM.
There was 14 aircraft in total.
12 of 14 were broker ordered, constructed.  All ordered with standard MTOW.  Completely defeating the purpose of ER
2 of 14 were player ordered and of course had the highest MTOW (the only way it makes sense to ordere ER).

Re-engine, Re-certify feature would just list all the combinations...

Offline wilian.souza2

  • Members
  • Posts: 882
Re: Adding options Re-engine, Re-certifify etc
« Reply #2 on: February 13, 2018, 01:15:54 AM »
I requested the same thing a while ago and I was told that it won't be done because re-engining and re-certifuing is rare in real life, and blah, blah, blah...

Offline yearofthecactus

  • Members
  • Posts: 583
Re: Adding options Re-engine, Re-certifify etc
« Reply #3 on: February 13, 2018, 06:31:54 PM »
Well, perhaps I should have separated this then. Re-engining is reasonably rare, although definitely happens especially on older planes that still have a use. And of course it is very expensive and quite difficult, so any option would also be expensive - perhaps prohibitively so.

Recertifying... or changing weight varaints.. IS done all the time. Recently  Air Canada wanted to upgrade its 777s MTOWs. Do you know what it involved? Basically, it required getting some pieces of paper signed. Changing take off weights is relatively straight forward, easy to achieve and is something that is incredibly common in commercial aviation.

So Sami would have a point about engines (although rare/expensive and impossible are not synonyms).

Be on re-certifying/uprating MTOW is not rare at all, and such an argument would be met with scorn in these quarters.

Offline yearofthecactus

  • Members
  • Posts: 583

The person who likes this post:
Re: Adding options Re-engine, Re-certifify etc
« Reply #4 on: February 13, 2018, 06:43:24 PM »
Further to this; lets say a leasing broker in real life, and on this game purchases the base model of 777-200. An airline is interested in purchasing or leasing (from a leasing broker, IRL, that'll involve leasing most likely).

The purchasing airline IRL would 100% be able to say they want it uprated to the MTOW, and indeed, it wouldn't delay the delivery of the aircraft noticeably at all. IF it weren't possible, they wouldn't buy the base models and cheapest variants and skimp on some paperwork. We have a situation in game where leasing brokers only purchase the lowest weight variant. IRL, this wouldn't happen if they weren't upratable.  Meaning - the ability to recertify weights should either be part of the game, or the practice of only base models coming from the brokers changed.

What we have at the moment is Sami saying it won't happen because it doesn't happen much in real life (it does), but  instead get a situation where junk variants of planes, (like the useless base version of the 737-200) are foisted on the market and un-upgradeable. You want to talk about unrealistic stuff that never happens/happened IRL - that is what we currently have.

The truth of the matter of course lies in the fact neither of these scenarios happes... leasing brokers most likely do buy the cheapest variants if available to avoid certification loops and added costs, and the onus is then on the airline to jump through the extra hoops, which they're more than happy to do.
« Last Edit: February 13, 2018, 06:47:58 PM by yearofthecactus »

Offline JumboShrimp

  • Members
  • Posts: 8040
Re: Adding options Re-engine, Re-certifify etc
« Reply #5 on: February 14, 2018, 02:42:21 PM »
Well, perhaps I should have separated this then. Re-engining is reasonably rare, although definitely happens especially on older planes that still have a use. And of course it is very expensive and quite difficult, so any option would also be expensive - perhaps prohibitively so.

Recertifying... or changing weight varaints.. IS done all the time. Recently  Air Canada wanted to upgrade its 777s MTOWs. Do you know what it involved? Basically, it required getting some pieces of paper signed. Changing take off weights is relatively straight forward, easy to achieve and is something that is incredibly common in commercial aviation.

So Sami would have a point about engines (although rare/expensive and impossible are not synonyms).

Be on re-certifying/uprating MTOW is not rare at all, and such an argument would be met with scorn in these quarters.

Back then the system (AWS) did not have the capability to "convert" aircraft.  But now, AWS has this feature.  So it would be great to extend this feature to re-certify / re-engine aircraft.

Offline MikeS

  • Members
  • Posts: 856
Re: Adding options Re-engine, Re-certifify etc
« Reply #6 on: February 14, 2018, 07:18:51 PM »
I understand the frustration of useless planes on the UM and that rectifying their specs to suit each airlines' needs would make life easier for all of us.
However, to make it realistic, a lot of studying would have to go into it. Some aircraft can be recertified easily with some changes in parameters and paperwork
to a higher or lower MTOW. Others not, however, requiring stronger engines and structural enhancements (prohibitively expensive). It would require a lot of
research to offer possible options at the correct price. I support the idea, but it'll be a lot of work.
What we can observe in real life are usually upgrades to the next higher MTOW option. In some cases adding and additional fuel tank, and ETOPS certification.
What is not common due to cost considerations: Upgrading an aircraft from let's say A310-200 to an A310-300 or 777-200 to 777-200ER , but that is mostly what we
are looking for I assume?

Cheers!
Mike

Offline JumboShrimp

  • Members
  • Posts: 8040
Re: Adding options Re-engine, Re-certifify etc
« Reply #7 on: February 14, 2018, 07:26:57 PM »
What is not common due to cost considerations: Upgrading an aircraft from let's say A310-200 to an A310-300 or 777-200 to 777-200ER , but that is mostly what we
are looking for I assume?

Cheers!
Mike

Not as radical as that. 

I think what we would be happy to see:
- re-certify: 777-200ER Standard MTOW -> +23.8 MTOW
- re-engine: 777-200ER PW engines -> RR engines

Offline MikeS

  • Members
  • Posts: 856
Re: Adding options Re-engine, Re-certifify etc
« Reply #8 on: February 14, 2018, 08:38:31 PM »
- re-engine: 777-200ER PW engines -> RR engines

Just to put matters into perspective:

The list price of a Trent 800 engine is around $20 million according to a news article from 2007, so the hardware alone would be $40 million
per aircraft plus labor and recertification. The old PW engines would still be worth something, of course...

Offline JumboShrimp

  • Members
  • Posts: 8040
Re: Adding options Re-engine, Re-certifify etc
« Reply #9 on: February 14, 2018, 08:44:10 PM »
Just to put matters into perspective:

The list price of a Trent 800 engine is around $20 million according to a news article from 2007, so the hardware alone would be $40 million
per aircraft plus labor and recertification. The old PW engines would still be worth something, of course...

Yes, the NET cost (between old and new engines) would be what player is charged, so much less than buying new engines.  Plus parts, labor, overhead etc or course.

Offline Zobelle

  • Members
  • Posts: 1770
Re: Adding options Re-engine, Re-certifify etc
« Reply #10 on: February 14, 2018, 09:25:54 PM »
Where do the old engines go?

Offline JumboShrimp

  • Members
  • Posts: 8040

The person who likes this post:
Re: Adding options Re-engine, Re-certifify etc
« Reply #11 on: February 14, 2018, 09:57:22 PM »
The are sold on the Used Engine Market  ;)

Offline SP7

  • Members
  • Posts: 114

The person who likes this post:
Re: Adding options Re-engine, Re-certifify etc
« Reply #12 on: February 16, 2018, 11:35:35 PM »
The are sold on the Used Engine Market  ;)

Presumably found next to the warehouse that resells the same seats you ripped out of a plane back to you.

Offline wilian.souza2

  • Members
  • Posts: 882
Re: Adding options Re-engine, Re-certifify etc
« Reply #13 on: February 18, 2018, 03:55:53 PM »
Look at my situation: invested millions of dollars with DC9-15s with extra tanks, thinking of the extra range that would allow me to carry passengers to places that were feasible to open routes for those aircraft not long ago, and now I'm full of aircraft useless for cargo transport, despite many routes could be made with standard DC9-15s without a problem. I'm screwed, because now I'm short of cash to make orders for new DC9-15s that hold cargo (since 99% of DC9-15s on the market have extra tanks). If re-certifying was available, this would be a minor problem...  :(

Offline Zobelle

  • Members
  • Posts: 1770
Re: Adding options Re-engine, Re-certifify etc
« Reply #14 on: February 18, 2018, 05:20:47 PM »
Review your routes to see how much cargo you’re really missing out on. I bet it isn’t much.

Offline Oscjo290

  • Members
  • Posts: 369
Re: Adding options Re-engine, Re-certifify etc
« Reply #15 on: February 18, 2018, 05:38:00 PM »
Look at my situation: invested millions of dollars with DC9-15s with extra tanks, thinking of the extra range that would allow me to carry passengers to places that were feasible to open routes for those aircraft not long ago, and now I'm full of aircraft useless for cargo transport, despite many routes could be made with standard DC9-15s without a problem. I'm screwed, because now I'm short of cash to make orders for new DC9-15s that hold cargo (since 99% of DC9-15s on the market have extra tanks). If re-certifying was available, this would be a minor problem...  :(

Refit them to DC-9-15F

Offline wilian.souza2

  • Members
  • Posts: 882

The person who likes this post:
Re: Adding options Re-engine, Re-certifify etc
« Reply #16 on: February 18, 2018, 07:00:06 PM »
I have one DC9-33F ready, just waiting for cargo be fully enabled in the world. I'll refit some DC9-15s, too, but not before I decide which model I will get to substitute the ones I will convert.

 

WARNING! This website is not compatible with the old version of Internet Explorer you are using.

If you are using the latest version please turn OFF the compatibility mode.