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Author Topic: Show maintenance costs when comparing aircraft  (Read 511 times)

Offline wilian.souza2

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Show maintenance costs when comparing aircraft
« on: September 26, 2017, 11:36:31 PM »
Hello, guys.

I was wondering if it's possible to show maintenance costs - and even selling and leasing prices - when comparing aircraft. I know there is the issue of used aircraft having higher maintenance costs and different selling/leasing prices, but just showing the base costs for new aircraft would help airline CEOs a lot to decide which airplane would suit their needs best. Some may disagree with this, but for me, comparing aircraft base costs side by side would help us choose the best aircraft much faster!

Offline gazzz0x2z

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Re: Show maintenance costs when comparing aircraft
« Reply #1 on: September 27, 2017, 07:22:36 AM »
Bah. Maintenance is irrelevant, unless you fly soviet stuff. And there is usually only one soviet stuff adapted to your need, and soviet stuff needs entirely different tactics.

Offline wilian.souza2

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Re: Show maintenance costs when comparing aircraft
« Reply #2 on: September 27, 2017, 06:02:47 PM »
I don't think it's irrelevant, considering each aircraft have 4 A-checks and 1 B-check per month... and some longhaul routes require 3+ aircraft of the same family to supply a route for the whole week!

For example, let's consider you are opening a route of 5000NM and you are deciding between A330-300X and B767-400. Both can carry approximately 280 passengers and, technically, the Boeing is better because it burns less fuel and requires less cabin crew. But what about the costs? You need to open a new info page for each aircraft to check their leasing costs and maintenance costs. Having that information on the Compare Aircraft page would help a lot decide which one would be ultimately better.

Offline gazzz0x2z

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Re: Show maintenance costs when comparing aircraft
« Reply #3 on: September 27, 2017, 07:15:12 PM »
Irrelevant in the sense that the difference is negligible. And the most important information - which is to know how the plane ages - is not available anyways. Because some planes are aging very bad - especially soviet steel. Maintenance is a problem with them, not because it's high when they are new(it's really not pnuitive at this stage of their lifecycle), but because it multiplies very quickly to insane levels. And this information is available only through experience, not through the stats page.

Fuel burn is also tricky, because it's far from being linear. I had a lot of experimentations with A148s, and beyond 1800NM, fuel burn increases massively. Making the A148E model an economic nonsense. The stats shown are a good start, but don't believe they say you everything. There are plenty of hidden stats.

Offline qunow

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Re: Show maintenance costs when comparing aircraft
« Reply #4 on: September 27, 2017, 07:26:02 PM »
and some longhaul routes require 3+ aircraft of the same family to supply a route for the whole week!
I think you are not really familar with the "commonality" concept specific to the game? when you fly an aircraft type, it is not a good idea to fly only a few planes of the same type

Offline freshmore

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Re: Show maintenance costs when comparing aircraft
« Reply #5 on: September 27, 2017, 08:26:57 PM »
Agree with gazz, the differences make it irrelevant. Fuel burn is affected by speed on a pure analysis of of the game given stats, the average is just a guide and the actual is calculated by the game based on the route. Staff for me on a large aircraft are not a huge problem on bigger aircraft, 8 to 9 isn't a huge percentage difference percentage wise. A smaller aircraft, it's a bigger percentage difference and then it makes more of a difference.

Other big thing is price, simple put a much cheaper aircraft will be much cheaper to run, either because it's leasing costs will be much lower or depreciation much lower. A cheaper aircraft will make any slight maintenance differences irrelevant and even make a slightly less fuel efficient (on average) aircraft look better. It's also worth thinking about weight, although I wouldn't say this is something to consider hugely, it's definitely worth bearing in mind, as heavier aircraft attract higher fees.

AWS because of commonality forces us to make compromises on aircraft commonality by putting a 4th fleet penalty, which hugely increases the costs of operating aircraft. Therefore it forces us into a 3 fleet compromise. So if for the most part your long haul routes are 300 max passengers and not much more than 6000nm, then B767 family makes greater sense, but if you have more max demand and longer potential routes, A330/340 or B777 makes more sense. The A330 covering what the B767 would normally do but because of game mechanics, we can't usually have both.

Offline gazzz0x2z

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« Reply #6 on: September 27, 2017, 09:27:18 PM »
I don't think it's irrelevant, considering each aircraft have 4 A-checks and 1 B-check per month... and some longhaul routes require 3+ aircraft of the same family to supply a route for the whole week!

Missed that part. Thanks qunow for the head-up. For supplying a long route, you need not three, but seven aircraft of the same type. Explanations in my tutorial about scheduling. And you'll see that with a proper schedule, the long haul aircraft are far, far better than you thought(still, don't push them too far - there is a 777 model that goes up to 10 000NM, but it's not a good idea. I tried. Ouch). Because you are using them far more often.

Other big thing is price, simple put a much cheaper aircraft will be much cheaper to run, either because it's leasing costs will be much lower or depreciation much lower.

The very reason A148s rock below 1800NM. Despite having maintenance costs double than their western counterparts, and slightly superior fuel and landing costs. When everyone wants E170s, they cost 50M$ each. When you are the only one to buy A148s, and are clever enough to leave the production line nearly empty to keep prices as small as possible, they cost you 15M$. I know I've secured deals at 13M$ with the maximum bonus for a big purchase. Suddenly, the cost problems of the A148 are irrelevant.

My very first real game, I had gone the CRJ route for my medium planes(had a few 737s for large work). My growth was small. A148 production lines were about to close. And I did the math. I was having 10M$ of pretax profit, with mostly leased planes, so my cash flow was around 7M$ per week. I could order 2 A148 a months, and kill my leasing costs for CRJs, that were getting insanely expensive. So I replaced. A CRJ700 was costing me around 100k$ per week to lease. Depreciation on A148s was around 6k$ a week. What I was losing on maintenance, I was sparing on insurance. Counting the fuel costs, I was still sparing 80k$ per week per medium plane. That's huge. It fueled my expansion, and after a slow start beyond the 100th place, I finished in the top 40, with more than 650 A148s flying in Europe. I'd have never reached this size, had I sticked to CRJs.

So, those are medium aircraft, the ones I know best. In the 2000s, you shall count 100k$ of unseen expenses, staff and marketing. The typical CRJ was doing 220k$ of visible profit. The typical A148 300k$. So real pretax profit was 120k$ for the CRJs, 200k$ for the A148. The A148 has much higher exploitation costs. Despite this, which is the best plane?

And now, the secret of great players. If you enter a game in the middle, you'll see the best players fighting for the best fleet groups. Ejets, 777s, A320s... But in the first years, they don't. They know that the best airframes are insanely costly, and onyl when they are swimming into cash they can afford. Until then, they are leasing old crap. DC9s in the late 90s, things like that.

Offline wilian.souza2

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Re: Show maintenance costs when comparing aircraft
« Reply #7 on: September 27, 2017, 11:51:58 PM »
Thank you guys for the insights! I'm still too new to this game, so I've never figured out things like real fuel consumption in an specific route. But I'm dealing with absurd leasing prices for new airplanes and doing my math. As for the scheduling, I know 7 planes is the best to supply a longhaul route - I read the tutorial days ago - and I'm reaching out to that goal. I already decided I won't create routes with more than 6000NM, nor use too big aircraft for that, as I'm already dealing with a giant opponent who only opens longhauls.

Offline freshmore

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« Reply #8 on: September 28, 2017, 03:40:02 PM »
And now, the secret of great players. If you enter a game in the middle, you'll see the best players fighting for the best fleet groups. Ejets, 777s, A320s... But in the first years, they don't. They know that the best airframes are insanely costly, and onyl when they are swimming into cash they can afford. Until then, they are leasing old crap. DC9s in the late 90s, things like that.

I would also add, good players know when to change plans on a type, A148's are a good case in point for a change in plan. GW2 at the moment everyone went all in on the F.27, HS.748 has plenty on the Used market (so should get cheap) let alone new and YS-11 is coming. Potentially a good time for new players who also have really cheap older Martin's etc to go after in the short term.

Offline groundbum2

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Re: Show maintenance costs when comparing aircraft
« Reply #9 on: October 30, 2017, 02:38:22 PM »
+1 for showing ABCD maintenance costs on the compare aircraft screen

Simon

 

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