AirwaySim
Online Airline Management Simulation
Login
Username
Password
 
or login using:
 
My Account
Username:
E-mail:
Edit account
» Achievements
» Logout
Game Credits
Credit balance: 0 Cr
Buy credits
» Credit history
» Credits FAQ

Author Topic: Fleet Commonality - 3rd Type Inconsistency  (Read 2234 times)

Online MuzhikRB

  • Members
  • Posts: 874
Re: Fleet Commonality - 3rd Type Inconsistency
« Reply #20 on: July 10, 2017, 02:19:42 PM »
Until now we didnt get any answer on that.

Stating that nothing has been changed cannot be accepted because everybody see real figures in their company commonalities pages.

As I go from 3rd to 4th fleet rotation my costs have rised 25% from 800K to 1M per month.

It is significantly lower then it was during my GW4 experience with the same size of fleet and not comparable with later stages of GW4 and GW3 when going from 3rd to 4th fleet multiply my commonality by 3-4 times.

at the same time my commonality doubled in GW2 when I was entering 3rd fleet.

so Sami can still told us that everything is the same, but its not.
I dont complain about returning it back, but I want to know the real situation to plan my moves.

Offline qunow

  • Members
  • Posts: 738
Re: Fleet Commonality - 3rd Type Inconsistency
« Reply #21 on: July 10, 2017, 10:26:57 PM »
Reading some old threads from when the current commonality system was implementeed at https://www.airwaysim.com/forum/index.php/topic,34837.0.html , in reply #13 it said:

More data to your formula:

*All cost included with engine maintenance

With 2 Fleets:
6 Fokker 100: $ 629,992    =    $ 104,998 per plane
13 Boeing 757-200: $ 1,478,978    =    $ 113,767 per plane
Total: 19 planes and $ 2,108,970    =    $ 110,998 per plane

With 3 Fleets:
6 Fokker 100: $ 1,113 .875    =    $ 185,645 per plane
13 Boeing 757-200: $ 2,689,353    =    $ 206,873 per plane
1 Airbus A320-100: $ 695,774   
Total: 20 planes and $ 4,499,002    =    $ 224,950 per plane
So it do seems like the system was always working as such in the past 6 years, just that no one noticed that until now.

Offline Talentz

  • Members
  • Posts: 1087
Re: Fleet Commonality - 3rd Type Inconsistency
« Reply #22 on: July 11, 2017, 01:33:50 AM »
Until now we didnt get any answer on that.

Stating that nothing has been changed cannot be accepted because everybody see real figures in their company commonalities pages.

As I go from 3rd to 4th fleet rotation my costs have rised 25% from 800K to 1M per month.

It is significantly lower then it was during my GW4 experience with the same size of fleet and not comparable with later stages of GW4 and GW3 when going from 3rd to 4th fleet multiply my commonality by 3-4 times.

at the same time my commonality doubled in GW2 when I was entering 3rd fleet.

so Sami can still told us that everything is the same, but its not.
I dont complain about returning it back, but I want to know the real situation to plan my moves.
Reading some old threads from when the current commonality system was implementeed at https://www.airwaysim.com/forum/index.php/topic,34837.0.html , in reply #13 it said:
So it do seems like the system was always working as such in the past 6 years, just that no one noticed that until now.


Well when Sami shot me down about no changes I assumed he meant the actual equation to calculating fleet common. However, what did change was some aircraft's classification. That in turn would change the end number when imputed in the fleet common equation.

For example, MuzhikRB's airline uses the following:

Airspeed AS.57 Ambassador
Curtiss-Wright C-46 Commando
Douglas DC-4
Douglas DC-6B

Which is currently classed as:

Medium
Medium
Large
Large

Before this GW, those aircraft were classed as:

Medium
Small
Medium
Large

Based off what the player base of AWS knows about Fleet Commonality, the costs are different between the two different fleet compositions. That is what I meant when I said it changed.

Now if Sami comes back and says that all the numbers should work out the same regardless of the above... well then he's the only one who truly knows whats going on.  :-[


Talentz
Co-founder and Managing member of: The Star Alliance Group™ - A beta era, multi-brand alliance.

Online MuzhikRB

  • Members
  • Posts: 874
Re: Fleet Commonality - 3rd Type Inconsistency
« Reply #23 on: July 11, 2017, 08:42:10 AM »
Look

I dont care what was in 2011

Currently in GW4. I have 600+ Ac company.

2 fleets md90 and 777 - total commonality - 51M
Add ATR fleet (3rd)- total commonality - 52,5M
Add A320 fleet (4th) total commonality - 330M

No difference between 2 and 3 fleet at all!


Offline Sami

  • Administrator
  • Members
  • Posts: 16728
    • AirwaySim - Are you the next Richard Branson?
Re: Fleet Commonality - 3rd Type Inconsistency
« Reply #24 on: July 11, 2017, 12:53:55 PM »
Yes, like mentioned, absolutely nothing has changed in the code regarding commonality in ages so can't comment why you see such figures. But in any case I'd rather push for the new commonality model (ref. features forum) instead of diving too deeply into this matter. ....but let's put the cargo in use first since it's been long overdue already  :P

Online [SC] - King Kong

  • Members
  • Posts: 743
Re: Fleet Commonality - 3rd Type Inconsistency
« Reply #25 on: July 11, 2017, 01:13:15 PM »
Yes, like mentioned, absolutely nothing has changed in the code regarding commonality in ages so can't comment why you see such figures. But in any case I'd rather push for the new commonality model (ref. features forum) instead of diving too deeply into this matter. ....but let's put the cargo in use first since it's been long overdue already  :P

It is. Looking forward to it.

Online MuzhikRB

  • Members
  • Posts: 874
Re: Fleet Commonality - 3rd Type Inconsistency
« Reply #26 on: July 11, 2017, 05:31:00 PM »
Yes, like mentioned, absolutely nothing has changed in the code regarding commonality in ages so can't comment why you see such figures. But in any case I'd rather push for the new commonality model (ref. features forum) instead of diving too deeply into this matter. ....but let's put the cargo in use first since it's been long overdue already  :P

well in that case this system push players to go only into big families finally (like airbus or boeing)

because otherwise its impossible to play in bases which have domestic/international/lh demand.

if player is pushed to have 2 family to be effective - then either he has to avoid sh or lh, or one of the family should cover sh/mh destinations.

and even in this case you will need to open 3rd fleet to replace families.

let us see how it will work

Offline gazzz0x2z

  • Members
  • Posts: 3898
Re: Fleet Commonality - 3rd Type Inconsistency
« Reply #27 on: July 12, 2017, 09:38:53 AM »
At the same time, it makes smaller families even cheaper. I mean, I'm playing in Warsaw. It's 1952, but let's look aheda to 2020. I don't have a lot of juicy destinations that are beyond 2250NM. So, I'll have the choice between A320neos, at 160M$ per piece, or equivalent C919, at 80M$ piece. With less range and choice, but for such a difference, who cares?

Of course, someone playing in the small UK's airports, whose demand to the US airports is often around 100-150 might ignore completely the C919, and head towards the MAX7 and its kickass 4000 NM range. That's another market. But he'll pay far more for his airplanes - even the ones flying to Warsaw, against my far cheaper C919.....

What I like in this game is that you've got to make choices. You choose your niches. In this game, in Warsaw, I'll have medium and large. So small(I did swarm in Warsaw with metros, long ago, it's fun and efficient), and very large(for which demand is not impressive anyways) will be ignored. It's a risk : opposition could try to sneak into those niches, and steal important slots for that. But if there is no risk, there is no merit dominating the base.

EDIT : that being said, I made again the calculation when I went back to 2 fleet groups, and it was making my margin better by 3.5% - I'm around 35% of margin. It is a real difference, but not a game killer. At current company sizes, you can perfectly field several fleet groups and still be profitable. Optimizing for costs is not always the best choice. You just have to know WHY you are overspending in maintenance - opening new markets is usually a good reason to bite the bullet.

What I don't know is the effect it will have on very big companies. We can't measure that yet, and I probably won't with my small HQ in a small market.
« Last Edit: July 12, 2017, 09:55:28 AM by gazzz0x2z »

Offline qunow

  • Members
  • Posts: 738
Re: Fleet Commonality - 3rd Type Inconsistency
« Reply #28 on: July 21, 2017, 04:37:53 AM »
The change in commonality cost is still almost 100% with a fleet group of ~60 aircrafts when comparing before and after dropped DC6B.

Note: This move cut my operational expense by about 5%, which translate to about 3% profit margin. Not a game charger but still noteworthy, and the reduction in cost is about as much as the combined operational profit of all my DC6B subfleet
« Last Edit: July 21, 2017, 04:47:27 AM by qunow »

Offline qunow

  • Members
  • Posts: 738
Re: Fleet Commonality - 3rd Type Inconsistency
« Reply #29 on: July 21, 2017, 01:51:59 PM »
https://i.imgur.com/kETpSTU.png
And the difference is not caused by taking more than 1 type of aircraft in same aircraft size category. C47=Medium, B247=Small, Connie=Large,  and the increase from 2 type to 3 was even larger than when it was DC6B.

Online Zombie Slayer

  • Members
  • Posts: 4604
Re: Fleet Commonality - 3rd Type Inconsistency
« Reply #30 on: July 22, 2017, 05:01:35 AM »
I went from 3 types to 2 types at 71 frames and the cost of types 1 and 2 did not change with the retirement of type 3. So, the threshold looks to be somewhere between 60 and 71 planes. Also, when I retired my last C-46 I had 32 CV-240 and 39 Connies which means both of those types reached their lowest cost per plane (incremental cost of adding a new plane to a fleet group shrinks with each plane until you get to 30 aircraft in a specific group) so the threshold may be related to the number in each group as opposed to a specific total fleet size.
Co-founder Elite Worldwide Alliance
PacAir President and CEO
Designated "Tier 1" Opponent

Offline qunow

  • Members
  • Posts: 738
Re: Fleet Commonality - 3rd Type Inconsistency
« Reply #31 on: July 31, 2017, 09:37:45 AM »


Yup, when I have 92 aircrafts of 2 fleets (78+16), growing it to 3 fleet add effectively zero extra commonality cost. I wonder where the boundary are, is that the size of the smaller fleet or size of the total fleet.

Compare this with the mobile screenshot I linked above and also reports from other players, we can see:
- The breakpoint is either between 64-71 total aircraft, or 8-16 for amount of aircraft in second largest subfleet
- If you cut/shrink your fleet beyond this boundary, then it is possible to result in an increase of mainhtenance and crew training cost in an absolute term so it would be wiser to keep those aircrafts operating instead of dropping below the boundary even when they are causing losses.
« Last Edit: July 31, 2017, 12:03:50 PM by qunow »

Offline EsquireFlyer

  • Members
  • Posts: 1470
Re: Fleet Commonality - 3rd Type Inconsistency
« Reply #32 on: August 21, 2017, 01:47:36 AM »
I wrote a bug report on this 2-3 years ago, and I'm surprised it's not common knowledge now. But the reason for the behavior described in the OP is that the system imposes commonality "rape" on the 3rd fleet for airlines with 99 or fewer planes, while not imposing the rape charges until the 4th fleet for airlines with 100+ planes. So if you have an airline with three fleet types and 99 planes, by adding a plane #100 you will see commonality costs drop to about half for all pre-existing planes. It makes no sense, and I don't remember exactly what Sami said in response, but that is how it was coded at the time, so if Sami says it has not changed for years, then that is how it still is.

Offline qunow

  • Members
  • Posts: 738
Re: Fleet Commonality - 3rd Type Inconsistency
« Reply #33 on: August 22, 2017, 06:00:15 AM »
I wrote a bug report on this 2-3 years ago, and I'm surprised it's not common knowledge now. But the reason for the behavior described in the OP is that the system imposes commonality "rape" on the 3rd fleet for airlines with 99 or fewer planes, while not imposing the rape charges until the 4th fleet for airlines with 100+ planes. So if you have an airline with three fleet types and 99 planes, by adding a plane #100 you will see commonality costs drop to about half for all pre-existing planes. It makes no sense, and I don't remember exactly what Sami said in response, but that is how it was coded at the time, so if Sami says it has not changed for years, then that is how it still is.
I believe the 4th type penalty is about 30% at the level of plus or minus 100 aircraft in player's fleet. That is the number I am getting now at 146 aircraft and I think it was also the number I was getting when I had about 90 aircraft although I don't have the recorod on my hand. From my earlier screenshots the 4th type penalty was 20% at 20 aircrafts.

 

WARNING! This website is not compatible with the old version of Internet Explorer you are using.

If you are using the latest version please turn OFF the compatibility mode.