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Author Topic: Base limits and anti-monopoly system. Long-term GW competition.  (Read 735 times)

I have already once mentioned proposal to change player company development system from current one.

Now we have 2 limits : base limit and ac limit outside of hq.
What does it mean? It mean if i want to build mega airline (over 1k acs) i need to start in a big base, cause i am limited to 600 outside of it anyway. So my HQ must have PAX demand a lot bigger than 600 AC outside. And that current system push good players to start only in big bases otherwise they will be limited in growth by ac limit.
From other side we need to protect players from over domination from big base holders expansion. Like players from LHR/ATL/ORD/CDG etc - can easily attack others, just because their HQ allows them to put acs even with free tickets :)
 
Current ac limit does not account the type of ac. 600 very large acs is not the same as 600 props. its simply cannot be compared in terms of revenue/ pax transfered etc.
10 bases like lax, ord, mia, atl is not the same like 10 bases in poland or philipines.

What I propose:

   1. remove ac limit outside of hq.
   2. Remove base limit.
3. Remove base opening time limit.


Instead:
Set up base points system.
Example:
Small base - 1 point.
Medium base - 2 points.
Large base - 4 points.
Very large base - 5 points.
Each player has 20 points. HQ counts in to this limit.

What it will allow?
Different strategy. You can open up to 20 small bases or just 4 very large. (HQ can be downgraded as well)

Or 1 very large hub and 15 small. And later you cannot upgrade it to very large because of limit.
And even opening small bases you can have thousands of planes.
Or you can open several medium bases in small places, build good airline and then conquer big airport without ac limits.

It will provide equal long term opportunity to more players and increase interest in game for old ones.
You can be very large operator by having 4 big bases or be like small regional operator by having 10-20 bases and using only small planes. But it can be several thousands planes at both variants. No limits in terms of fleet sizes.
you dont need to start in LHR/ATL, you can start in medium size port in USA biuld up your company, open 1-2 additional bases of the same level - and may be 20 year later when you see that big base become vulnerable - you can easily go into it not worrying about AC limit.

From other side - big monsters will be limited to open multiple bases, because usually player that own ATL/LHR like bases using large/very large fleets that means they will need to open same size bases which returns us to points limit. it means more different players will have chances to compete for TOP50 size airports. also it means every next step must be checked twice.

Also. Points system is more open to changes and can be adjusted to different GW environment more easily than just strict base or ac limits. It can be easily customised according to specific country/continent like TAX system now.

WBR, Eve
« Last Edit: February 25, 2017, 08:25:09 AM by MuzhikRB »

Online JumboShrimp

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Re: Base limits and anti-monopoly system. Long-term GW competition.
« Reply #1 on: April 03, 2017, 08:44:16 PM »
All good points.  It does not really make sense that 1 small aircraft counts as 1 (toward the numerical out of the base limit) same as 773.

Your suggestion makes a lot of sense.

Short of that (reworking the base limits), I think the system should just allow the 600 limit to grow, rather than stop.  The 600 limit was put in place when the end year of the game worlds was 2020.  Now we have extra 16 years (in GW3 for example) and the limit is still stuck at 600 for last maybe 20 years of the game).

But again, ideally, the limit should be on sum of (number of bases * base size) with no numerical limit on each base.

One of the good side effects is that the player would not have to start at the countries biggest airport in order to build the biggest airline for the country (given that HQ is the only one airport where limits don't apply).

Online JumboShrimp

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Re: Base limits and anti-monopoly system. Long-term GW competition.
« Reply #2 on: September 17, 2018, 06:40:04 AM »
What I propose:

   1. remove ac limit outside of hq.
   2. Remove base limit.
3. Remove base opening time limit.


Instead:
Set up base points system.
Example:
Small base - 1 point.
Medium base - 2 points.
Large base - 4 points.
Very large base - 5 points.
Each player has 20 points. HQ counts in to this limit.

What it will allow?
Different strategy. You can open up to 20 small bases or just 4 very large. (HQ can be downgraded as well)

Or 1 very large hub and 15 small. And later you cannot upgrade it to very large because of limit.

Or how about this alternative:

Tiny base - 1 point - 50 aircraft
Small base - 2 point - 100 aircraft
Medium base - 3 points - 200 aircraft
Large base - 4 points - 400 aircraft
Very large base - 5 points - unlimited aircraft

Arcraft would be regardless of size of aircraft

But total points: variable,  growing by 1 every 5 years:

1950   1
1955   2
1960   3
1965   4
1970   5
1975   6
1980   7
1985   8
1990   9
1995   10
2000   11
2005   12
2010   13
2015   14
2020   15
2025   16
2030   17
2035   18

Offline dandan

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Re: Base limits and anti-monopoly system. Long-term GW competition.
« Reply #3 on: September 17, 2018, 07:25:40 AM »
Or how about this alternative:

Tiny base - 1 point - 50 aircraft
Small base - 2 point - 100 aircraft
Medium base - 3 points - 200 aircraft
Large base - 4 points - 400 aircraft
Very large base - 5 points - unlimited aircraft

Arcraft would be regardless of size of aircraft

But total points: variable,  growing by 1 every 5 years:

1950   1
...

sounds reasonable, but one should start with a few more points. i mean, in 5 years, even i expanded into more than 50 planes, i think ;)

Online Tha_Ape

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Re: Base limits and anti-monopoly system. Long-term GW competition.
« Reply #4 on: September 17, 2018, 07:29:46 AM »
I find the initial proposal very, very interesting and feel it could improve the game quite a bit, but on the other hand I think it doesn't completely suits to all places in the world and would need some refinements before being ready for implementation.

For example, in my current game in USSR/Russia, I'm pretty big (800-850 a/c) but for this I need:
 - 8 bases total
 - 2 of them very large
 - 5 large
 - 1 medium
Because of the range needed, Siberian airports need to be large if you don't want to limit them to 7 commuters and 7-14 medium prop (radical example, Vladivostok: by the time USSR is closed I have only 5 destinations within a 1000nm radius). But at the same time airports aren't huge and you will never be able to base 100 large a/c in a large base (bar the 2 main Moscows and St Pete).
So with this proposal I'd be at 2x5+5x4+1x3=33 points while still quite far from your definition of a behemoth airline.

More generally, I think this proposal would work perfectly in the West, because airports are large enough to support plenty of planes and make this rule profitable for everyone, it would reduce the size of airlines in the 2nd world where airports aren't large enough.

JS's alternative still uses points but links it to the n of aircrafts based brings something more, as the global capacity (in terms of max a/c total and max a/c per base) is directly taken into account, and then there is the growth over time.

Another direction/complementary solution would be to directly link the number of planes to the size of the base to determine the points needed to operate such a base. Thus, more less crowded bases would be allowed (if you cannot fit hordes of planes in one airport).

As in this proposal (values to be adjusted, obviously, only a rough draft):

Offline Mort

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Re: Base limits and anti-monopoly system. Long-term GW competition.
« Reply #5 on: September 17, 2018, 10:00:44 AM »
I really like that latest version of this proposal Tha_Ape put forward, having the number of points take into account both the size and number of planes makes a lot of sense to me.

Additionally as JS suggested, having the point limit grow over time gives another dimension to it.

+1

Online JumboShrimp

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Re: Base limits and anti-monopoly system. Long-term GW competition.
« Reply #6 on: September 17, 2018, 06:02:15 PM »
sounds reasonable, but one should start with a few more points. i mean, in 5 years, even i expanded into more than 50 planes, i think ;)

The years and levels could be tweaked.  Not all Game Worlds start in 1950.  In 1960 game start, the player would start with 3 points good for 200 aircraft right from the start.

I think all of the game worlds should be able to convert to this (if Sami decides to go forward with this proposal).

Offline ZombieSlayer

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Re: Base limits and anti-monopoly system. Long-term GW competition.
« Reply #7 on: September 17, 2018, 06:07:57 PM »
I've liked the idea of a points system since the idea was first floated about 4 years ago. It makes sense. It allows more freedom with any type of airline you choose to operate and the ability to play the game until the end, unlike the current system that maxes out 21 years early.

So yeah, this gets a huge thumbs up and a +1 from me.
Co-Founder Elite Worldwide Alliance
CEO PacAir
Designated "Tier 1 Opponent"

Online wilian.souza2

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Re: Base limits and anti-monopoly system. Long-term GW competition.
« Reply #8 on: September 18, 2018, 12:29:36 AM »

What I propose:

   1. remove ac limit outside of hq.
   2. Remove base limit.
3. Remove base opening time limit.


Instead:
Set up base points system.
Example:
Small base - 1 point.
Medium base - 2 points.
Large base - 4 points.
Very large base - 5 points.
Each player has 20 points. HQ counts in to this limit.

What it will allow?
Different strategy. You can open up to 20 small bases or just 4 very large. (HQ can be downgraded as well)

Or 1 very large hub and 15 small. And later you cannot upgrade it to very large because of limit.
And even opening small bases you can have thousands of planes.
Or you can open several medium bases in small places, build good airline and then conquer big airport without ac limits.

This is a great idea. I'd only change the point limits from max. 20 to 5 + 1 per 10M inhabitants in the country. This would balance the limit proportionally to the country which is being played.

Online Tha_Ape

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Re: Base limits and anti-monopoly system. Long-term GW competition.
« Reply #9 on: September 18, 2018, 05:34:12 AM »
This is a great idea. I'd only change the point limits from max. 20 to 5 + 1 per 10M inhabitants in the country. This would balance the limit proportionally to the country which is being played.

That would give roughly 108 points to a player based in China - just insane. 19 to Russia (but 34 to USSR), only 11 to France, etc.
And only 6 to the UAE, (forcing to reenact Emirates / Etihad).

I think this would go too far.

Online MuzhikRB

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Re: Base limits and anti-monopoly system. Long-term GW competition.
« Reply #10 on: September 18, 2018, 08:34:49 AM »
basically

as i wrote initially - the system is flexible. points allocation  can be tuned up and down according to GW reality.

but the main idea - i see that from posts - is to go from current limits to something else has got a lot support.

Sami has great testing facility - BWs and special short-term GWs. Why not just try it there ?

this limits do not affect core game mechanics - I dont think it will take too much time to code it and just try. then we will see real effects of it.
lets just do it.

Online Sami

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Re: Base limits and anti-monopoly system. Long-term GW competition.
« Reply #11 on: September 18, 2018, 11:12:50 AM »
However... Will it be too hard to understand with all these points etc? For a casual user I mean...

Online Tha_Ape

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Re: Base limits and anti-monopoly system. Long-term GW competition.
« Reply #12 on: September 18, 2018, 11:28:09 AM »
However... Will it be too hard to understand with all these points etc? For a casual user I mean...

If the modification is explained very clearly right when a player joins this test game and the table remains easily accessible afterwards, I don't see it as a big problem - just need an initial emphasis on it.

Online wilian.souza2

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Re: Base limits and anti-monopoly system. Long-term GW competition.
« Reply #13 on: September 18, 2018, 11:29:50 AM »
That would give roughly 108 points to a player based in China - just insane. 19 to Russia (but 34 to USSR), only 11 to France, etc.
And only 6 to the UAE, (forcing to reenact Emirates / Etihad).

I think this would go too far.

It would satisfy those players playing in highly populated countries willing to cover the maximum demand they can while giving a chance for a second airline to establish in a small country. In 2010's Brazil of GW2, I and my main opponent would be limited to have 5 very large bases each (= 25 points), allowing a healthier competition and perhaps more space for other airlines to establish. So I think my proposal is pretty fair.

It would also have the benefit to change dynamically over time, as overall population increases.
« Last Edit: September 18, 2018, 11:37:59 AM by wilian.souza2 »

Online wilian.souza2

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Re: Base limits and anti-monopoly system. Long-term GW competition.
« Reply #14 on: September 18, 2018, 11:35:54 AM »
However... Will it be too hard to understand with all these points etc? For a casual user I mean...

The system could calculate the points system ang give the following status:

Number of base points used: 20/30
Number of allowed bases left: 10 small or 5 medium or 3 large or 2 very large


And detail the points system in the manual.

Online Tha_Ape

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Re: Base limits and anti-monopoly system. Long-term GW competition.
« Reply #15 on: September 18, 2018, 11:50:44 AM »
It would satisfy those players playing in highly populated countries willing to cover the maximum demand they can while giving a chance for a second airline to establish in a small country. In 2010's Brazil of GW2, I and my main opponent would be limited to have 5 very large bases each (= 25 points), allowing a healthier competition and perhaps more space for other airlines to establish. So I think my proposal is pretty fair.

It would also have the benefit to change dynamically over time, as overall population increases.

To get back to my example, China ans 108 points means that one could have 21 bases in China!!! How many aircraft would that mean? 5000? One airline could take it all (while in today's games it needs at least 4 or 5 airlines to be pretty well covered, not counting the regional carriers).
And on the other hand France, 11 points would allow CDG as main hub and then Orly, that's all. Far from what Air France has IRL, just for a reference (10 total).
But Pakistan, which IRL or in the current games is a medium market would allow around x3 bases compared to France...

The problem here is that you don't play with a geography, or a tiny country in which the demand is high, you play with a country that's populated or not. While a few places would become suddenly very interesting, most of them would suffer from this system.
The example of Brazil is relatively balanced, but plenty of others aren't.

Online JumboShrimp

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Re: Base limits and anti-monopoly system. Long-term GW competition.
« Reply #16 on: September 18, 2018, 12:04:35 PM »
However... Will it be too hard to understand with all these points etc? For a casual user I mean...

Instead of calling "points", just call them "levels".

Player can open a base at a certain "level" and increase the base level later on to a higher level...

Online Tha_Ape

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Re: Base limits and anti-monopoly system. Long-term GW competition.
« Reply #17 on: September 18, 2018, 12:11:23 PM »
Instead of calling "points", just call them "levels".

Player can open a base at a certain "level" and increase the base level later on to a higher level...

Right. It's quite easy to understand that a "large" base with 10 medium planes and 20 large planes is not at the same level that a "large" base with 250 large planes.
Indeed, it even makes more sense.
The math would be a little complicated, but it's still only counting to 20 (or 25, or whatever).

Offline dmoose42

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Re: Base limits and anti-monopoly system. Long-term GW competition.
« Reply #18 on: September 18, 2018, 01:17:25 PM »
Another way to think about it, is that an airline gets a basing point for every year in operation (or other criteria) and then can spend those points on expanding their bases. For those GWs that start late, players could be allocated initial points as well. The question would be whether or not points should be accrued solely based on time in operation of whether a player can earn additional points through achieving milestones (I.e., two extra points for adding 25 routes previously unserved by any airline) or through cash payments (I.e., two points can be purchased for x million dollars)

We can calibrate how this would best work, but I think a combination of airport size (x points to upgrade from medium to large base) as well as number of planes allowed (x points in order to base another y frames at that base) could work.





Online JumboShrimp

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Re: Base limits and anti-monopoly system. Long-term GW competition.
« Reply #19 on: September 18, 2018, 01:25:43 PM »
Another way to think about it, is that an airline gets a basing point for every year in operation (or other criteria) and then can spend those points on expanding their bases. For those GWs that start late, players could be allocated initial points as well. The question would be whether or not points should be accrued solely based on time in operation of whether a player can earn additional points through achieving milestones (I.e., two extra points for adding 25 routes previously unserved by any airline) or through cash payments (I.e., two points can be purchased for x million dollars)

We can calibrate how this would best work, but I think a combination of airport size (x points to upgrade from medium to large base) as well as number of planes allowed (x points in order to base another y frames at that base) could work.

Excellent ideas about earning points - For years in operation etc.  Other ideas to earn points:
- total number of destinations served
- additional passengers carried (every certain number would earn a point)
- same for cargo

The_Ape posted a good refinement (table) about how to spend points on a base, on either more aircraft that can be based or larger aircraft.

 

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