"Airline Killer" planes

[rntair]

Which planes do you think can kill an airline due to their poor combination of operating costs and passenger load? Mostly it will be too big or too small, but I'd like to hear your opinions on some really terrible Planes.

My votes:
Cessna 208 Grand Caravan- every sucker in BW2 buys one of these off the new market for squat. Many airlines think they CANNOT make any money of leased planes and then buy 1 or 2 of these new planes, and maybe a used 757. Then they fly them from Long Beach to Yuma. Bad choice.

Airbus A380- this is a common one, where new airlines enter a lease contract they cannot afford just because they want to run the A380. The worst are the airlines based out of Kansas City of something who try to fly the A380 to Dallas or Chicago. Sheesh.

[gazzz0x2z]

Every plane can be used bad. Even if some are worse than others. A company that uses IL-62M(and its five pilots crews) in 1998, for Glasgow-Detroit, or tries to fly a Glasgow-Cairo in 737-200 with tech stop(against opposition in better planes) is not very clever. I'm sometimes not very clever.

The problem of th Caravan - or of the A380 - or the Concorde - is that they are niche aircraft, that occupy a full fleet group. They take a lot of place. A380 can be very efficient on some lines, the keyword here being "some".

There are also planes that are vastly inferior to everything else that flies on the same category at the same time, the Baade, the TU-344(vastly inferior to the ARJ21, which is vastly nferior to virtually any other regional jet of the same era). You can be successful with planes that are not the best of their category(Schro routinely flies with a high level of success companies with 1000 MD90-55 in the 2020s, even though those planes are vastly inferior to their more modern opposition, I did already build 2 companies with 500 or + A148.....)

[saetta]

Almost all Russian planes are horrific in my book ...Comets and Caravelles not much better ! The CV 240/340/440 are not that great either. even tough every one seems to love them, and think of them as a sure regional bet in early scenario games..while the MARTIN 404 is better and gets bypassed..which makes it even better since it becomes cheaper for lack of interest !!

[TheLostNZ]

Almost all Russian planes are horrific in my book ...Comets and Caravelles not much better ! The CV 240/340/440 are not that great either. even tough every one seems to love them, and think of them as a sure regional bet in early scenario games..while the MARTIN 404 is better and gets bypassed..which makes it even better since it becomes cheaper for lack of interest !!

start GWs in 1950s and they will be alot better

[[ATA] Hassel]

Yeah, i miss a 1950 gameworld - loving those early birds

[saetta]

Miss it too BIG TIME !!

[[SC] - King Kong]

The production capacity is higher on the convair compared to the martin. That is a reason larger airlines prefer to stick with those...

Baade is lovely but it sucks in making money

[[SC] - King Kong]

Every plane can be used bad. Even if some are worse than others. A company that uses IL-62M(and its five pilots crews) in 1998, for Glasgow-Detroit, or tries to fly a Glasgow-Cairo in 737-200 with tech stop(against opposition in better planes) is not very clever. I'm sometimes not very clever.

The problem of th Caravan - or of the A380 - or the Concorde - is that they are niche aircraft, that occupy a full fleet group. They take a lot of place. A380 can be very efficient on some lines, the keyword here being "some".

There are also planes that are vastly inferior to everything else that flies on the same category at the same time, the Baade, the TU-344(vastly inferior to the ARJ21, which is vastly nferior to virtually any other regional jet of the same era). You can be successful with planes that are not the best of their category(Schro routinely flies with a high level of success companies with 1000 MD90-55 in the 2020s, even though those planes are vastly inferior to their more modern opposition, I did already build 2 companies with 500 or + A148.....)

The md90 is a hidden gem and combined with 717 in the same fleet is a very useful plane for certain strategies that warrant a large mix of larger and smaller planes

[gazzz0x2z]

The md90 is a hidden gem and combined with 717 in the same fleet is a very useful plane for certain strategies that warrant a large mix of larger and smaller planes

Hidden gem in the 90s(facing A320 & 737-300), not in the 2020s(facing MAXs & NEOs). The advantage is that you can hunt on the F100 areas with the B717, the drawback is that B717 has clearly higher costs than a F100(or, God forbid me, a F120NG). The crew costs are far better on medium planes like the F100 than on large planes as the B717, which more than offsets the fuel & speed difference.

But, of course, the F100 would be another fleet group. That's all the interest of the game : making choices that matter. I never played without a 70-seater, and the B717 is little big for my taste on the regional market, but yes, his big quality is that he extends the MD90 family down. You have to make a choice, between covering well Long-haul, and covering well regional. I always go for the regional - which limits my possibilities on long-range. Be kick-ass on long-range, and you have to give up smaller lines to smaller fish as me. You cannot do everything. And that's what's cool.

[MuzhikRB]

The crew costs are far higher on medium planes like the F100 than on large planes as the B717, which more than offsets the fuel & speed difference.

may be you meant vice versa ? personnel costs are higher for larger planes.

[gazzz0x2z]

corrected, thanks

[Zombie Slayer]

Hidden gem in the 90s(facing A320 & 737-300), not in the 2020s(facing MAXs & NEOs). The advantage is that you can hunt on the F100 areas with the B717, the drawback is that B717 has clearly higher costs than a F100(or, God forbid me, a F120NG). The crew costs are far better on medium planes like the F100 than on large planes as the B717, which more than offsets the fuel & speed difference.

But, of course, the F100 would be another fleet group. That's all the interest of the game : making choices that matter. I never played without a 70-seater, and the B717 is little big for my taste on the regional market, but yes, his big quality is that he extends the MD90 family down. You have to make a choice, between covering well Long-haul, and covering well regional. I always go for the regional - which limits my possibilities on long-range. Be kick-ass on long-range, and you have to give up smaller lines to smaller fish as me. You cannot do everything. And that's what's cool.

I'll go to bat for the MD-90/717 vs MAX and NEO here. Yes, the MD-90/717 is inferior to the new Max and NEO, but also WAY cheaper. GW3, 2023. MD-90-55 is $114m, similar sized Max8 is $150m and an A320NEO is $151m. Based on $1000/1000kgs fuel prices and the difference in maintenance costs, it would take 12 years to make up the price difference between the two. If you lease, it would take even longer to make up the difference. At the end of the day it boils down this: The MD-90/717 combo makes it to the end of the game just fine and the hassle of an extra fleet transition is not worth the work and the lost fleet group through the transition. The cost savings is just not there to warrant it. Even back in 2006 in GW2, the MD-90 is $20m a frame cheaper than the A320 or 737-800.

That is not saying the A320/NEO and 737NG/Max are not great choices, but the MD-90/717 is not a bad choice either!

[diskoerekto]

I BKd once in this game and it was early game in HKG and I was stupid enough to use Breguet 763s. That thing not only looks like a zeppelin but also flies as fast as one. With zero competition it was possible to make a little bit of money but the moment I had competition no passenger in their right minds flew in my veeeery slow airplanes. Things went south really fast from there.

[gazzz0x2z]

I BKd once in this game and it was early game in HKG and I was stupid enough to use Breguet 763s. That thing not only looks like a zeppelin but also flies as fast as one. With zero competition it was possible to make a little bit of money but the moment I had competition no passenger in their right minds flew in my veeeery slow airplanes. Things went south really fast from there.

Low speed has also another drawback : you have less ROI. When a plane flies double the speed, you can fly it more during the day, and have more pax/seat. That's why despite their lower oprational margin, Regional jets are as interesting as turboprops. Because their owning costs are spread amongst more flights.

[diskoerekto]

Low speed has also another drawback : you have less ROI. When a plane flies double the speed, you can fly it more during the day, and have more pax/seat. That's why despite their lower oprational margin, Regional jets are as interesting as turboprops. Because their owning costs are spread amongst more flights.

In fact I took its speed (in terms of miles made per day) into account when I was making my profitability calculations and it still seemed like a good option. I had no idea though nobody would choose a plane that flies at the same speed as a steam boat.

[gazzz0x2z]

Just had a look : 92 seats, 1650 kgs/hour, 200 ktas..... yeah, that's rather bad. 1330NM of range is not excellent either.

[schro]

Just had a look : 92 seats, 1650 kgs/hour, 200 ktas..... yeah, that's rather bad. 1330NM of range is not excellent either.

Those would probably do quite well in ATL actually. However, I've never pursued them as its usually not possible to get them in significant numbers (i.e. 100 or less get generated for a 1960 game world start and production ended prior to the world starting).

[Johan87]

as there is a gw from 1990-2030,why not a 1950/5 till 1995/2000?
then also have a game for the industry revolution lovers.

Yeah, i miss a 1950 gameworld - loving those early birds

[saetta]

I would love a 1950 start ...but nobody seems to be listening. Early airliners made you think and take risks , and the successful  transition to jets required a good amount of planing ...all much fun !!

[saetta]

In the early 1950's the DC 4, and a bit later the early Connie 's were the cats miao, DC 6 way too advanced !