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Author Topic: TIP : Do not join a game on day 1  (Read 2955 times)

Offline Infinity

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Re: TIP : Do not join a game on day 1
« Reply #20 on: May 25, 2014, 09:02:37 PM »
There is no inherent advantage gained by starting late as the startup money will still buy the same number of slots, aircraft, etc.

That has already been refuted. If in the beginning you can buy 2 planes and the accompanying sots; but by restarting a few weeks later 4-5 planes and the according slots, that's not an inflation-countermeasure. What you are saying could not be more wrong.

$49.000 per day on a base of $8 Million is an annual inflation rate of 223%.

It is good that startup cash increases, and at a later stage of the game i find it perfectly okay if it exceeds inflation noticeably. But that should not start this early in the game's startup phase.

Offline Sami

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Re: TIP : Do not join a game on day 1
« Reply #21 on: May 25, 2014, 09:12:19 PM »
but by restarting a few weeks later 4-5 planes and the according slots

Incorrect, as you can easily lease 4 planes with the 8 mil startup capital (but you just can't during the initial 24 hr static day as everyone is limited to 2 on their first day). A reasonable MD-80 series is about 1-1.3mil prepayment, so with 4 planes and 8 mil to start with that totals to about 5mil so you have 3 mil to spare for slots still. (again, slot prices depend on airport, so initial 4 planes doesn't make any sense in the long run if something goes wrong initially, so you'd be cutting it very thin)

So, to summarize. The money starts to increase when the game clock starts. The increase is not immediate nor fixed by any certain amount and not that major like some guys have tried to say (without knowing any better; ie. "day 2 = huge boost" => bs.). The "increase rate" increases gradually (<- sounds stupid but pardon my french) and peaks at about 6 months into the game and after that it increases at a steady rate (= slower increase rate at the beginning of the game). So once again all the talk here has been totally unnecessary since the real 'advantage' (if any) is initially reached only after the game is over 6 months old, or later. But that difference is rather meaningless due to increased slot costs for the late starters and other stuff. = Lot of talk of nothing really.
« Last Edit: May 25, 2014, 09:21:21 PM by sami »

Offline Infinity

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Re: TIP : Do not join a game on day 1
« Reply #22 on: May 25, 2014, 09:20:40 PM »
Incorrect, as you can easily lease 4 planes with the 8 mil startup capital

Sorry sami, but that's just not true. We have a few players who have competitors in their airports who restarted after a few days, using exactly the same strategy as our guys. We can see the difference very clearly and it is just the way I have described it.

Offline Sami

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Re: TIP : Do not join a game on day 1
« Reply #23 on: May 25, 2014, 09:22:38 PM »
Well, I just checked 2 minutes ago and a MD-82 with next D check about 7 years into the future costs you ~1.2 million to order (>80%, <8yr). Look it up (used id #6509; single example). But like I said, it's not wise to get 4 of those (I would start with 3 planes with this cash, if I were to fly midsize jets .. or alternatively two large ones, or 4-5 smaller ones). You haven't considered at the possible cash reserves left after all initial actions, which you cannot see naturally yet at this point. If one leases 4 of these midsize jets his cash reserves will be very low, and like I already said, there is very little room for any errors then. (=> not a wise move .. it CAN work, but it's risky)


And to add, of the top 10 largest sized airlines (fleet) 9 have started on day 1 (9-12 planes each). Game is now about 90 days 'old'. (=> absolutely no trend here.)
« Last Edit: May 25, 2014, 09:31:44 PM by sami »

Offline JumboShrimp

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Re: TIP : Do not join a game on day 1
« Reply #24 on: May 26, 2014, 04:03:36 AM »
A lot of talk again from everybody without ANY facts or knowledge on how it works I see. On day 1, this new game (y/1995) the start cash was 8 000 000 USD for a class 5 airport. On day 2 it was 8 049 000 USD. So, if you want that extra $49k, go ahead and join a day later. :P

Like announced, the money increases gradually as the game time goes on (both inflation and the game specific money increase function; of course in short term inflation has no effect, but in long term it's very noticeable). It would be of course nonsense to give an immediate big bump on the money after the first 24 hours, even I am not that silly.... (= a smooth and linear increase that is)


(Not very smart to spread these opinions as hard facts.)

At regular start, players received:
$4m initial capita
$4m in money fro loan

That results in 8m cash, but only 4m Airline Value.  Initially, the Airline Value = Shareholder Equity = initial capital.

Fast forward just 100 days, to today.  Airline starting today starts with $9m initial capital, vs. $4m on day 1.  That's extra $5m

Now let's compare this free $5m that the new airlines get, how it compares to what older airlines made:

400 out of 500 airlines who have played for 5 months did not manage to earn $5m.  So BK and restart gets right to top 20% airlines, jumps ahead of 80% of airlines that have played for moths.  Is it fair?  I don't think so.

I am not saying there should not be some increase, but I think more appropriate increase would be maybe $10,000 per day, not $50,000 per day.  So after 100 days, new player would get an extra $1m, instead of extra $5m.

Sanabas

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Re: TIP : Do not join a game on day 1
« Reply #25 on: May 26, 2014, 05:35:12 AM »
400 out of 500 airlines who have played for 5 months did not manage to earn $5m.  So BK and restart gets right to top 20% airlines, jumps ahead of 80% of airlines that have played for moths.  Is it fair?  I don't think so.

What's that based on? They haven't got their CV to increase above 9 million? Or have you looked at revenue?

I just tested, by joining & quitting GW#3. I'd rather have the 3 months extra growth in fleet size, RI, etc than the extra 5.5 million in startup cash. Sure, my CV won't have grown at all, it'll almost certainly be negative. But starting with an extra 5.5 million, my CV will be negative inside 2 gameweeks, too. 4 months in at big airport, I'd expect about a dozen planes, plus maybe a couple more ordered, decent chunk of slots, solidly profitable but no cash on hand. Start now and play for 2 gameweeks, so also 4 months in, and I'd expect 6-8 planes + their slots, but no RI, less profit, and also no cash on hand.

So, if you're a 'good' player, probably better off starting on day 1, though there's now more of a safety net for you, you can screw up, start over, have a clearer picture of what the competition is like, and not be as far behind as you otherwise would. If you're only an 'intermediate' player or a beginner, it's going to be easier to learn from your mistakes and start over in what is now a tougher market. If you're the sort of player who wants to BK all competitors, it's going to be tougher to simply squash anybody new who shows up in your airport.

Looks reasonable to me. It's possible it needs some balancing, my gut reaction is 5.5 million in ~100 game days is a little high, but hardly seems like a catastrophe. And as I said, I'd expect to be in a better position with 100 days of growth than I would be with 5.5 million extra cash.

Curse

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Re: TIP : Do not join a game on day 1
« Reply #26 on: May 26, 2014, 06:02:59 AM »
That's simply too much.


Offline JumboShrimp

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Re: TIP : Do not join a game on day 1
« Reply #27 on: May 26, 2014, 11:52:58 AM »
What's that based on? They haven't got their CV to increase above 9 million? Or have you looked at revenue?

I just tested, by joining & quitting GW#3. I'd rather have the 3 months extra growth in fleet size, RI, etc than the extra 5.5 million in startup cash. Sure, my CV won't have grown at all, it'll almost certainly be negative. But starting with an extra 5.5 million, my CV will be negative inside 2 gameweeks, too. 4 months in at big airport, I'd expect about a dozen planes, plus maybe a couple more ordered, decent chunk of slots, solidly profitable but no cash on hand. Start now and play for 2 gameweeks, so also 4 months in, and I'd expect 6-8 planes + their slots, but no RI, less profit, and also no cash on hand.

So, if you're a 'good' player, probably better off starting on day 1, though there's now more of a safety net for you, you can screw up, start over, have a clearer picture of what the competition is like, and not be as far behind as you otherwise would. If you're only an 'intermediate' player or a beginner, it's going to be easier to learn from your mistakes and start over in what is now a tougher market. If you're the sort of player who wants to BK all competitors, it's going to be tougher to simply squash anybody new who shows up in your airport.

Looks reasonable to me. It's possible it needs some balancing, my gut reaction is 5.5 million in ~100 game days is a little high, but hardly seems like a catastrophe. And as I said, I'd expect to be in a better position with 100 days of growth than I would be with 5.5 million extra cash.

Wait, the extra "free" money is now $9.4m according to the screen shot, up to $13.4m.  Quitting and restarting gets you right to the top 50 players of 500 players, jumping over 450 players who are sticking with their game.  I think that is highly unfair.

I am not a total idiot as far as this game is concerned.  But I started at poor part of the world, at airport below top 40 airports.  All I managed to accumulate, by playing better than average player was $7.6m.  So all I managed to "earn" was $3.6m.  Giving players free $9.4m, 3x of what a good player can earn is simply too much.  The only thing that is not counted in my Airline Value is accumulated marketing expenses, which in my case was $0.5m.

Another comparison:  I started on hour 23 of the first day.  There were 3 A320s on UM, all overpriced.  Restarting today, there are 3 pages of A320s on UM, some inexpensive, a lot fairly priced.

Would I e better off restarting rather than continuing fairly well played game, played for 5+ game months?  Absolutely.

I can the need of some extra starting capital starting at Year 2, Year 3, when the Used Market is empty.  But this early, this much is IMO just unfair.

Sanabas

  • Former member
Re: TIP : Do not join a game on day 1
« Reply #28 on: May 26, 2014, 12:15:40 PM »
Wait, the extra "free" money is now $9.4m according to the screen shot, up to $13.4m.  Quitting and restarting gets you right to the top 50 players of 500 players, jumping over 450 players who are sticking with their game.  I think that is highly unfair.

Extra money is 5.4, not 9.4. As you said day 1 was 8 mill cash, 4 of it loaned, and it's now 13.4 mill, 4 of it loaned.

Quote
I am not a total idiot as far as this game is concerned.  But I started at poor part of the world, at airport below top 40 airports.  All I managed to accumulate, by playing better than average player was $7.6m.  So all I managed to "earn" was $3.6m.  Giving players free $9.4m, 3x of what a good player can earn is simply too much.  The only thing that is not counted in my Airline Value is accumulated marketing expenses, which in my case was $0.5m.

So 50% more than you've earned (5.4 vs 3.6), not 3 times. And not sure that a smaller airport would get you that much now, as Sami said airport size makes a difference. I didn't check anywhere else.

I'm still not sure of your accounting, what that 7.6 mill represents. Is that your current value, or your taxable profit, or is it that in the first 3 months, your money spent on slots & leases is 11.6 mill, after having 8 mill to start?

I think that's the relevant number to look at, money spent on slots & leases. If I start right now, I spend ~13 mill on slots & leases in the first game month, have no cash & 4 mill in loans, and go from there. 4-5 months in, how much have you spent on slots & leases, and how much cash on hand vs loans?

My guess is that your airline in 24 RL hours will be in a better situation than I'd be in 24 RL hours if I started right now, even with that 5 million extra startup cash. Both in terms of volume of slots/planes, and with an established RI meaning better profitability over the next few months.

Offline JumboShrimp

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Re: TIP : Do not join a game on day 1
« Reply #29 on: May 26, 2014, 01:48:40 PM »
Extra money is 5.4, not 9.4. As you said day 1 was 8 mill cash, 4 of it loaned, and it's now 13.4 mill, 4 of it loaned.

ok.

I'm still not sure of your accounting, what that 7.6 mill represents. Is that your current value, or your taxable profit, or is it that in the first 3 months, your money spent on slots & leases is 11.6 mill, after having 8 mill to start?

It represents initial capital and all accumulated profits.  My initial capital was $4m, accumulated profits $3.6m

The new accounting system is really good.  This number is inclusive of any money spent on slots or aircraft lease deposits.  So the $3.6m is what I earned, and I am comparing it to $5.4m that is given free now.

I think that's the relevant number to look at, money spent on slots & leases. If I start right now, I spend ~13 mill on slots & leases in the first game month, have no cash & 4 mill in loans, and go from there. 4-5 months in, how much have you spent on slots & leases, and how much cash on hand vs loans?

As I said, slot costs are included in the Airline Value

My guess is that your airline in 24 RL hours will be in a better situation than I'd be in 24 RL hours if I started right now, even with that 5 million extra startup cash. Both in terms of volume of slots/planes, and with an established RI meaning better profitability over the next few months.

I would argue otherwise, but the concept needs to be examined.  Is it fair for a newly started airline be on equal footing with airlines that have been in the game for a period of time and had to earn everything?  I would argue not.  I would argue that newly founded airline needs a good shot at surviving, especially when UM is empty, but not be at equal footing with an average existing airline.

But it is even worse.  Newly started airline is not at equal footing with average existing airline.  It jumps to top 20% of airlines, it jumps ahead of 80% of existing airlines.

Offline LotusAirways

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Re: TIP : Do not join a game on day 1
« Reply #30 on: May 26, 2014, 05:54:22 PM »
It's possible it needs some balancing, my gut reaction is 5.5 million in ~100 game days is a little high

Touche!

Offline Longbow

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Re: TIP : Do not join a game on day 1
« Reply #31 on: May 27, 2014, 10:57:27 AM »
oh... now I understand why so many players are BKing and then reopening in the same place with the same name.

Perhaps could be a good solution to block the availability of the same airport once BKpped, dunno, for 1 real week?

 

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