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Author Topic: [-] Turn around times  (Read 915 times)

Offline ezzeqiel

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[-] Turn around times
« on: July 17, 2012, 04:40:58 PM »
I'm seeing, that's probably one of the main problems of widebodies in this game... When I first tryed to use one, I was shocked on the long turn-arounds, and I immediatly went back to smaller planes with shorter turn arounds... (You have to put 2:45hs or 3hs in the A380 and B747 in order to achieve the 1% delay chance, but 70' will do with narrowbodies.. in short routes that's 1 more flight to narrowbodies... it's crazy)

The B777 turns around in 50' but it's 100' in AWS.. DOUBLE...
http://www.boeing.com/commercial/airports/acaps/777_23.pdf
B737 turns around in 30-40' (depending on variation). In AWS.. ACCURATE
http://www.boeing.com/commercial/airports/acaps/737.pdf


I'm starting to understand why people here use turboprops or narrowbodies instead of widebodies... I'd have change the widebodies turn around time first in order to encourage their usage over smaller aircraft instead of tweaking other stuff...
« Last Edit: July 17, 2012, 05:27:19 PM by sami »

Offline ezzeqiel

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Re: Turn around times
« Reply #1 on: July 17, 2012, 04:43:07 PM »
More data:

B767.. 40', it's 80' on AWS... DOUBLE
http://www.boeing.com/commercial/airports/acaps/767sec5.pdf

A320.. 23' to 43' (depending on service). on AWS 40'... ACCURATE
http://www.airbus.com/fileadmin/media_gallery/files/tech_data/AC/Airbus-AC-A320-Jun2012.pdf

A330.. 60'.. on AWS 80'... 33% MORE
http://www.airbus.com/fileadmin/media_gallery/files/tech_data/AC/Airbus-AC_A330_Dec11.pdf

A340.. 40' to 70' (depending on service and variant).. in AWS 80'.. 14% MORE
http://www.airbus.com/fileadmin/media_gallery/files/tech_data/AC/Airbus-AC_A340-200_300_Dec11.pdf

B787.. 45'. In AWS 80'.... DOUBLE
http://www.boeing.com/commercial/airports/acaps/787sec5.pdf

A300. 30' (with 3 doors open =P).. In AWS 70'.. DOUBLE
http://www.airbus.com/fileadmin/media_gallery/files/tech_data/AC/AC_A300_20091201.pdf



My point is smaller planes has closer turn around times to the manuals than big planes. Small planes has a huge advantage there.

Offline ArcherII

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Re: Turn around times
« Reply #2 on: July 17, 2012, 04:54:09 PM »
You have to consider that AWS has put a nominal turnaround time for each fleet as they'd be very different for each flight length. LH/ULH requires different needs like huge quantities of fuel, catering, self-loading cargo (aka passengers), cargo (when...).

I agree, though, that it could somehow be customized for different flight legths. But I'm not a programmer or coder, so I don't know how easy, difficult or impossible this task is.

Offline ezzeqiel

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Re: Turn around times
« Reply #3 on: July 17, 2012, 05:00:41 PM »
You have to consider that AWS has put a nominal turnaround time for each fleet as they'd be very different for each flight length.

Yes, I used the largest turnaround for each fleet, and the largest turnaround in servicing, in order to make a fair comparison.


Another thing:

The 1% delay time formula should be fixed.

The formula is simple: if the turn around is longer, then the needed time to 1% delay is longer too (with a very small decrease on %)...

That's not accurate. The 1% delay could be waiting passengers to board, and that's a fixed thing... you can keep an A320 waiting 30' waiting for that last passenger, the same time an A380 could be waiting for the same passenger.

The A380 won't wait 2 more hours than A320 for that last passenger just because it had a larger turn around time before.


So the time required to the 1% delay over the "normal time", should be the same to all planes, or at least the formula needs to be changed.

40' + 30' to A320.
120' + 30' to the B747.


In AWS
A320 needs 75% turn around time to 1% delay.
A330 needs 68% turn around time to 1% delay.
A380 needs 66% turn around time to 1% delay.

% on bigger planes should be smaller.
« Last Edit: July 17, 2012, 05:11:17 PM by ezzeqiel »

Offline Sami

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Re: Turn around times
« Reply #4 on: July 17, 2012, 05:27:08 PM »
The turnaround times will not be changed until a feature "variable turnaround time" is added. (search for it from the other forum if you wish to add something there for future consideration)


(btw, no way one can turn a 777 in 50 minutes after a longhauler on constant day to day basis. That is A320/737 time territory, and sometimes even 50 mins is not enough for let's say A321 if the ground crew, cleaning or fuelling is a bit sloppy.. Unfortunately ... But that would go into delay sector of course)
« Last Edit: July 17, 2012, 05:29:20 PM by sami »

Offline ezzeqiel

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Re: Turn around times
« Reply #5 on: July 17, 2012, 05:33:35 PM »
(btw, no way one can turn a 777 in 50 minutes after a longhauler on constant day to day basis. That is A320/737 time territory)

I'm comparing manual to manual stats... if a 777 cannot be turned around in 50 minutes then an A320 cannot be turned around in 40 minutes (same manual comparison), and the airlines I travel in, turns around a 320/737 in 20 mins (it's basically the time people takes to get in and out the plane)..


I'm giving you "hard" data, but you use your RL experience and thougths... You on the other side won't accept RL experience but only "hard" data.


BTW. A 747 could be turned around in 90 minutes or even less.
« Last Edit: July 17, 2012, 05:39:15 PM by ezzeqiel »

Offline ezzeqiel

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Re: [-] Turn around times
« Reply #6 on: July 17, 2012, 05:34:54 PM »
Also, you prefer tweaking unrealistic LF distribution instead of making turn around times accurate in order to address the same issue.

Offline Sami

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Re: [-] Turn around times
« Reply #7 on: July 17, 2012, 05:46:30 PM »
Also, you prefer tweaking unrealistic LF distribution instead of making turn around times accurate in order to address the same issue.

What on earth are you talking about? At no point in the pax distribution calculation we are "tweaking load factors".


I'm comparing manual to manual stats... if a 777 cannot be turned around in 50 minutes then an A320 cannot be turned around in 40 minutes (same manual comparison), and the airlines I travel in, turns around a 320/737 in 20 mins (it's basically the time people takes to get in and out the plane)..

You CAN turn 737 sized planes in 15-20 minutes if everything goes fine, and there is for example no refuelling and such. You CAN do that in ~50 minutes for a 777 or A340 too (seen it .. try Japan). But doing it every day for the entire schedule is something that is impossible (= you cannot base the schedule on such time, and make it work, that is what I mean). (or you can very well turn an A340 in 30 minutes after a short domestic hop too. But the entire turnaround times system is currently based to the assumption that plane gets a "full" treatment (appropriate to the plane size) on every turnaround, and for longhaulers this is a long thing...)


And as said, this will not be changed until the turnaround system is modified at some point to take into account the flight length (ie. short flight => possibly no refuel & light cleaning => shorter turn possible).


Oh yes, also: The aim to achieve 1% delay probability when planning routes is completely unnecessary (Don't stare at those times at all). For example 60 min turn for A320 series is fully OK in the sim.

(Another edit; Looked at the 777 doc, and have to mention that they are giving quite optimistic times for passenger boarding. 12.5 minutes to board a full(?) 777 .. huh..  Assumes also that boarding and refuelling can take place at the same time. And that cleaning happens partially at the same time with passenger de-boarding ?!.)
« Last Edit: July 17, 2012, 05:57:12 PM by sami »

Offline ezzeqiel

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Re: [-] Turn around times
« Reply #8 on: July 19, 2012, 03:23:56 AM »
What on earth are you talking about? At no point in the pax distribution calculation we are "tweaking load factors".

If you change demand distribution, the LF will change... If a plane sells more or less seats, the LF will be different.

What I mean is that widebodies usage should be encouraged in another way. (changing turn around times for example), than tweaking demand distribution. People should use widebodies for the same reason RL airlines do, and not because they just will get more or less passengers.


(Another edit; Looked at the 777 doc, and have to mention that they are giving quite optimistic times for passenger boarding. 12.5 minutes to board a full(?) 777 .. huh..  Assumes also that boarding and refuelling can take place at the same time. And that cleaning happens partially at the same time with passenger de-boarding ?!.)

I remember boarding at least one plane while the fuel hose was still connected (probably refueling)... Also, manuals allows it...
http://www.airbus.com/fileadmin/media_gallery/files/safety_library_items/AirbusSafetyLib_-FLT_OPS-GND_HAND-SEQ01.pdf

Many not LCC airlines do not clean the plane in domestic or regional turn around (they do in the base airport once the round trip was done).

Back to the 777. Boarding is in 15', with two bridges that's 15 people per minute per door... It's not crazy...

Anyway ok, the 777 50' may be optimistic. but my point remains the same... Bigger planes has longer turn around (compared to their manuals) than smaller planes (compared to their manuals).

 

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