Which country do you come from?

[Jona L.]

Just sell the Greek islands to Turkey and viola you have solved two problems at once!

Not until tukcie is part of the EU (so not before 2500/2600) ( )

Also, could Turkey even afford to buy some Greek islands? I don't know how Turkish finances are, but I think mining the Turkish - Syrian border must be expensive, same as all the military being deployed down there (though that would be payed even if in "reserve"). But still the increase in security effort down there can't cost nada...

[alexgv1]

Turkey is a prospering country at the moment and has actually grown too big for the EU. Still having economic growth in these times. Yes they afford good military budget like any prosperous nation but most of the army are conscripts.

[[ATA] - lilius]

If some moderator is around maybe it would be the time to split this topic to separate the countrys with the discussion?

If no moderator is around..lets hit the barricades before Sami wakes up

[[ATA] - lilius]

Turkey is a prospering country at the moment and has actually grown too big for the EU. Still having economic growth in these times. Yes they afford good military budget like any prosperous nation but most of the army are conscripts.

No Alex, the reason Turkey cant join is more likely cultural and religious and the political aspects of those issues. Its difficult enough to make the current members unite on simple core values.

[Jona L.]

Turkey is a prospering country at the moment and has actually grown too big for the EU. Still having economic growth in these times. Yes they afford good military budget like any prosperous nation but most of the army are conscripts.

"too big for EU" !? LOL!!! sorry, mate, but I think the country is just too sharia-friendly for the EU... and this is not only my opinion (though many will have a counter opinion as well). Anyhow, having economic growth is not that big of a problem... Germany is at 1.2-1.9% still (though we are used to 5-8%) but we have overcome recession already, and even France is slightly over the 0%, China is still at 5% and some others as well. But I must give you right, as it is not many that still make it to keep economics growing. Germany has (mainly due to post-war treaties) never actually spent a lot of money despite the common wealth and the strong economy. Anyhow, it is understandable that with neighbors such as Syria a country needs a big military budget.

And most armies are mostly consisting of conscripts. The German one used to be such and is now purely voluntarily organized. Israels army is 100% conscripts, as every person must serve 6 yrs (women 4 (I think)) in the army and after that can be conscripted any time Israel needs them.

Still I have a logic problem in this discussion... I went through that with lilius on Skype©:

Following the saying: The enemy of my enemy is my friend.
Greece and Turkey are enemies between each other. So one of them needs to be my friend... but who is? I am for the neither of them, but I cannot decide who to jump in for Turkey or Greece..... DAMN!! as said: Logic problem...

cheers

[Jona L.]

No Alex, the reason Turkey cant join is more likely cultural and religious and the political aspects of those issues. Its difficult enough to make the current members unite on simple core values.

Well, I needed longer for my typing, but that basically is what my first line is supposed to mean...

[Jona L.]

If no moderator is around..lets hit the barricades before Sami wakes up

Hey, Alex... it is just one and a half pages away from a six page job (though the first weren't ours)... anything to do tonight yet? - Just kidding, gotta work on my maths project, can't spend my whole night here...

[alexgv1]

Turkey isn't really a Sharia Law country, I think you will see the UK becoming one before Turkey. It is secular it's a fundamental part of their constitution, although one which is being threatened. The difference with Turkey's growth was that it never felt the recession so much, so where you claim these countries recovered, Turkey never had to recover as it grew through this whole financial crisis.

As for joining the EU I don't think they are that fussed anymore, compared to five years ago when they were actively trying. Seems like EU wasn't such a great idea many people thinking. Of course it is still for better trade relations with EEC. Like I said before, which I'll rephrase: Europe needs Turkey more than Turkey needs Europe. When they were applying the reasons were mainly their currency (which is overhauled) and the problems with the Kurdish Worker's Party.

As for conscript armies, I would say Israel and Germany are a special exception. Germany because they have lost WWII and like Japan have more of a limited self defence force (although they are participating with ISAF in Afghanistan as part of NATO). And Israel because it hasn't existed for so long and its neighbours kind of all hate them. For example UK has a fully professional army and many Turks I've spoken to think Turkey should also downsize and have a professional army and scrap national service.

[Tujue]

Sorry guys hadn't thought my comment would start up another off topic discussion.

As for Turkey being part of EU, as a "European" with Turkish born parents (don't know how to describe myself, here I'm a Turk, in Turkey I'm Dutch), I don't want to have Turkey being a EU member. I really would vote NO if there was a referendum about it, like most of the citizens of Turkey. Especially with the problems Europe is currently facing, why would they put themselves in chaos? Let Turkey start its own union with other Turkic language speaking countries, with some cooperation with the EU. "Turkey being too sharia-friendly for the EU" is the most bullsh*t reason I have heard so I won't go into this. I had used Alex's comment "Europe needs Turkey more than Turkey needs Europe" also, but a cooperation (not EU membership) could result in a win-win situation.

Buying up all the Greek island in the Aegean Sea would be impossible maybe, but with its economy growing day by day, it can afford to buy some for sure. But will it be a good investment? That's the other side of the story. The Turkish armed forces are already deployed in the south-eastern part of the country for years now due to the Kurdish rebels. Turkey never really had good relations with its neighbors except with Azerbaijan, all due to historic issues (at the times of the Ottoman Empire), Turkey always has invested a lot of money in its armed forces. Instead of looking for trouble with "the enemy of my enemy is my friend" we are looking to peace at home by solving the problems with our neighbors. Although there need to be done so many things before this is achieved, we're benefiting from it already. Although there are still cat/dog fights above the Aegean sea between Turkish and Greek fighters, this isn't because of both countries see each other as enemies, it is because a dispute regarding who "owns" the airspace above the Aegean Sea. Hope this would be solved also very soon, instead of thinking which side to choose if they will fight.

[alexgv1]

(don't know how to describe myself, here I'm a Turk, in Turkey I'm Dutch)

Feel your pain brother  although generally people have been very welcoming to their own

Although there are still cat/dog fights above the Aegean sea between Turkish and Greek fighters

I thought they had gentlemen's agreement to stop those, too many crashes from both sides   

Loss of the Turkish Stars' pilot recently was sad 

[JumboShrimp]

Speaking of Turkey in EU, I think every country has to approve a new member.  I have a feeling that Austria will exercise a veto here...

[Tujue]

Feel your pain brother  although generally people have been very welcoming to their own

I thought they had gentlemen's agreement to stop those, too many crashes from both sides   

Loss of the Turkish Stars' pilot recently was sad 

It should have stopped it, but every time a Turkish F-16 (after takeoff from Izmir or Bodrum) or if a Turkish Navy ship comes too close to a Greek island, the Greeks take off with fully loaded fighters. Their recent agreement should stop these because it costs Greece too much money, however we still see Greek and Turkish fighters "playing" with each other.

Yes the Turkish Stars crash was very sad, especially since the pilot didn't wanted to leave the plane and instead opted to save his plane

Speaking of Turkey in EU, I think every country has to approve a new member.  I have a feeling that Austria will exercise a veto here...

Yep, that's correct and i'm happy that Austria is vetoing the membership of Turkey

[alexgv1]

I think he stayed with the plane to avoid populated areas also? Very noble sacrifice.

[knutm1980]

Israels army is 100% conscripts, as every person must serve 6 yrs (women 4 (I think)) in the army and after that can be conscripted any time Israel needs them.

It's 3 years for male and and 2 for female conscripts last time I checked..might have changed.  Personally, I'm a bit unsure about this whole thing. I'm Norwegian, we're meant to do 1 year..I did mine in 2 weeks. But I'll tell you this..you quickly spot the pseudo fanatics when you go in. I was not necessarily opposed, but some kids were being quite immature and making fun of the man..2 days later, these same people were running around shouting orders for everyone to get in line. Fascinating experience.

Anyway, back on topic. I'm going to be uber controversial. I'm pro EU letting in Turkey. Why not? They are in the Eurovision Song Contest together with Israel and Azerbaidjan..The latter being a petro nation. And for anyone who has ever watched the eurovision, appreciate the geopolitical impact of this ridiculous event.  Even Lebanon was meant to be in it..Europes borders are vague at best. As much as I see the potential of EU, they seem to have their priorities misplaced..deciding postage cost rather than truly working towards a united, free and open Europe. But having said that, I still think there are a few questions Turkey refuses to answer..but in terms of regional powers, there are other countries in western Europe i.e France, who also refuse to answer/own up to past actions.  

Personally, I think borders are lame (far from as lame as the schengen agreement though). I'm mostly saying this as I want to move somewhere warmer, but visa requirements are ridicolous at where I'm looking. Any tips from anyone on somewhere warm, relatively economically vibrant and work possibilities?

[knutm1980]

From RPLL...

The picture should give a hint as to where I am from... That is if you recognize a thing in it...

Also... First Post! \o/

Pinoy! I do miss the chaos of jeepneys. Lived in Makati from '92 to '96. Odd no one recognized these...Filipino cars/public transport are quite unique in that sense.

[Jona L.]

Pinoy! I do miss the chaos of jeepneys. Lived in Makati from '92 to '96. Odd no one recognized these...Filipino cars/public transport are quite unique in that sense.

In his post he said: "From RPLL" so no need to mention the city anymore, as everyone (at least here) should be able to tell where about RPLL is..

cheers,
Jona L.