A good reason for ETOPS; Misuse of frequency feature;

[Jona L.]

Hello!

By now I have gotten seriously pead off by some business methods being used at the moment.

As you can see in the screenshot, "sleak76" CEO of British World is using A320/21 aircraft on a route of 8 hrs length (in this case LHR-JFK) which is in fact a sin towards the skies over the Atlantic. The most used air routes in the world being crowded by Short Haul Jets... what is this? A joke? If it is one, it is a bad one.
For the record: In MT#5 you see about 50-60 A320/21 aircraft fly out of LHR to East-Coast-USA each day and another 20 into the middle east. Only by that company, haven't see others in this game to it to LHR yet though.
He is not the only one doing it, he just now gave the fire to light the gunpowder by doing that even more than anyone I have seen it do before.

This method has seen an incredible increase with the introduction of the new slot system. Though I don't blame the system as main factor, however it does contribute, but what I blame is the overrated and thus misused frequency feature. Either a harsh cut in that one or the introduction of ETOPS restriction (which would not solve this problem on routes to Middle East from Europe) could mean an end to this. For me, using B777 and A330/40 aircraft on such routes, this is getting by far too much.


I'd like to hear comments and opinions please.

cheers,
Jona L.

[swiftus27]

No comment.  I've said my fill on this topic.

Last time I asked what ETOPS certain planes were, I got this response:

I don't care.

I play AirwaySim and don't work for an aircraft manufacturer or an airline in real life who is interested in such things.

If you want to have something exactly like in real life, I suggest joining it. In 99 of 100 cases it's directly out of your door. It also has huge multiplayer parts and if you become your own African dictator, you can eventually forbid 757 in your country.

[Dave4468]

Adding ETOPS might solve some problems but add more. In my mind it would make AWS less accessible to some newer players. To people with a passing interest in aircraft and maybe just in AWS for the business simulation ETOPS is a meaningless acronym. And then IRL there is nothing to stop someone flying an A321 across the Atlantic, look at a map of ETOPS 180 which the A320 family have...



Crosses the Atlantic fine.

I think long haul aircraft need to have a coded advantage over short haul aircraft, no matter what the factors are in the game world, coded into the game over a certain distance johnny pax should prefer a B777 or A380 over an A320 or B737-900 over a certain distance.

[swiftus27]

It appears this all roots back to how one wins through frequency. 

For instance, I am now losing market share to someone flying Saabs 600nm.

Perhaps there should be a max number of flights between A and B where the number is decided by a scale (and there's a different scale for int'l flights)...  If under X nm distance then Y A/C.   

[Dave4468]

Perhaps there should be a max number of flights between A and B where the number is decided by a scale (and there's a different scale for int'l flights)...  If under X nm distance then Y A/C.   

That I like, I could see how that may work.

[LemonButt]

The solution is simple: seat quality.  If you are on a 7 hour flight from JFK to LHR, passengers should have premium seats.  An A321 can seat 220Y in high density config or 140Y in premium config.  Passengers on routes 5-8 hours should be coded to have a HEAVY preference towards premium seat aircraft (0-2 hours high desnity, 2-5 standard, 8+ hours luxury).  This would give the A321 operators a choice of flying 220 seats at 50% LF or 140 seats at 100% LF.  At the end of the day, it's going to be very difficult for them to turn a profit with only 140 passengers on a 200 seat airplane.

[Dave4468]

This could also be effected if any in flight stuff was ever introducted. You can fit better and bigger everything on a B777 than you could on an A320 and still return a profit. I'm thinking IFE and galley's and the like.

[swiftus27]

This could also be effected if any in flight stuff was ever introducted. You can fit better and bigger everything on a B777 than you could on an A320 and still return a profit. I'm thinking IFE and galley's and the like.

another good idea.  

1.4?

Massive up front costs are a deterrent only (the slot cost increase).   Airlines in this game are going to pay 2 million for a 200nm slot because once they got it, they got it.   It slows people down, but they get past it quickly.

[Jona L.]

No comment.  I've said my fill on this topic.

Last time I asked what ETOPS certain planes were, I got this response:
[Quote from Curse]

That is Curse's opinion, who cares for that?!

[Jona L.]

The solution is simple: seat quality.  If you are on a 7 hour flight from JFK to LHR, passengers should have premium seats.  An A321 can seat 220Y in high density config or 140Y in premium config.  Passengers on routes 5-8 hours should be coded to have a HEAVY preference towards premium seat aircraft (0-2 hours high desnity, 2-5 standard, 8+ hours luxury).  This would give the A321 operators a choice of flying 220 seats at 50% LF or 140 seats at 100% LF.  At the end of the day, it's going to be very difficult for them to turn a profit with only 140 passengers on a 200 seat airplane.

I disagree and I agree...

I disagree on the seat quality, though I'd say we should individually choose the seating pitch and width instead of having fixed qualities, thus giving us more variability and more options. I think if you compare real life airlines' seats to the seats in AWS no airline uses higher than "Standard" seats, at least in Y class, no matter of the distance.

Anyhow I agree, that it should be hard to make cash on an A321 if flown over a certain distance.

Adding ETOPS might solve some problems but add more. In my mind it would make AWS less accessible to some newer players. To people with a passing interest in aircraft and maybe just in AWS for the business simulation ETOPS is a meaningless acronym. And then IRL there is nothing to stop someone flying an A321 across the Atlantic, look at a map of ETOPS 180 which the A320 family have...

I didn't know they already had the 180mn ETOPS.... darn then

I think long haul aircraft need to have a coded advantage over short haul aircraft, no matter what the factors are in the game world, coded into the game over a certain distance johnny pax should prefer a B777 or A380 over an A320 or B737-900 over a certain distance.

Definitely something we could use well. I highly support that thinking.

cheers,
Jona L.

[LemonButt]

I disagree and I agree...

I disagree on the seat quality, though I'd say we should individually choose the seating pitch and width instead of having fixed qualities, thus giving us more variability and more options. I think if you compare real life airlines' seats to the seats in AWS no airline uses higher than "Standard" seats, at least in Y class, no matter of the distance.

The reason they don't have the upgraded seats is because there are a fixed number of slots at JFK/LHR and thus a fixed number of competing flights.  In AWS, the competition is virtually uncapped with the slot growth scheme, which is why seat quality (width + pitch) should be a major factor.  Also IRL, an airline can't just walk into an airport and take 80% of the slots on a first come/first served basis.  Airport authorities don't want a monopoly because it increases ticket prices and reduces passengers going through the airport.  The only other alternative is to limit slots on a per airline basis to push players towards maximizing their resources by flying bigger planes to more destinations versus smaller planes with more frequency to fewer destinations.

[Shleds]

As a new player, I often have a "pie in the sky" strategy, but I am easily confused with the equation "What plane do I use on such a demand/distance"... I am reading this thread and I do not see what the issue is, and I don't know what ETOPS means. -=sigh=-

It would be nice to have a guide that helps the newcomers with airplane choices. Something like "on a short distance (less than 600nm) and a demand of less than 100 pax a day, you would look into a plane that has a fuel consumption of less than x/hour, or a prop plane." or "On a high demand route with long distance, you should look at the seating capacity and xyz factor."

I am not looking for a guide that would say "if the route is less than 500nm and you have a demand of 50-100 use a Dash-8", I am looking at what would be the key factors to assist us in making smart decision.

I had to declare bankruptcy because I was using 4 different types of 767 on short routes, so my fleet commonality sucked ( I thought all 767 would be the same commonality, I was veddy veddy wrong).. And I think that while I was making smart route decisions, I was making poor plane decisions. =(

I'll keep on reading...

[Dave4468]

As a new player, I often have a "pie in the sky" strategy, but I am easily confused with the equation "What plane do I use on such a demand/distance"... I am reading this thread and I do not see what the issue is, and I don't know what ETOPS means. -=sigh=-

ETOPS stands for Extended-range Twin-engine Operational Performance Standards. Basically it defines how long a given two engined aircraft such as a B777 or A330 can fly should one engine give out. It mostly (possibly only) matters on routes over water. For example an aircraft with a ETOPS-180m rating (most modern Western jets) can fly over water as long as they are within a 180 minute flight on one engine from the nearest airport.

It would be nice to have a guide that helps the newcomers with airplane choices. Something like "on a short distance (less than 600nm) and a demand of less than 100 pax a day, you would look into a plane that has a fuel consumption of less than x/hour, or a prop plane." or "On a high demand route with long distance, you should look at the seating capacity and xyz factor."

Thats a good idea, I don't think the current FAQs cover it in that detail at all.

I had to declare bankruptcy because I was using 4 different types of 767 on short routes, so my fleet commonality sucked ( I thought all 767 would be the same commonality, I was veddy veddy wrong).. And I think that while I was making smart route decisions, I was making poor plane decisions. =(

I thought the 767s are all the same group?

[yevgeniy]

Shelds, all 767s do have the same commonality.

BUT Their engines might not be the same, in which case they would have an additional commonality cost for the engine (which in truth is relatively minor).

Using 767s on short routes is not a good use, because of their long turn around times. For short routes nothing really beats the 737/A320 series. Although going smaller to the E195 type of aircraft can also work.

[swiftus27]

767s are all in the same fleet group.  

Really only the MD80s, 37s, 47s and A320s really have the multiple fleet types... not including the Dash 8 stuff.

[broadbander]

Hello!

By now I have gotten seriously pead off by some business methods being used at the moment.

As you can see in the screenshot, "sleak76" CEO of British World is using A320/21 aircraft on a route of 8 hrs length (in this case LHR-JFK) which is in fact a sin towards the skies over the Atlantic. The most used air routes in the world being crowded by Short Haul Jets... what is this? A joke? If it is one, it is a bad one.
For the record: In MT#5 you see about 50-60 A320/21 aircraft fly out of LHR to East-Coast-USA each day and another 20 into the middle east. Only by that company, haven't see others in this game to it to LHR yet though.
He is not the only one doing it, he just now gave the fire to light the gunpowder by doing that even more than anyone I have seen it do before.

This method has seen an incredible increase with the introduction of the new slot system. Though I don't blame the system as main factor, however it does contribute, but what I blame is the overrated and thus misused frequency feature. Either a harsh cut in that one or the introduction of ETOPS restriction (which would not solve this problem on routes to Middle East from Europe) could mean an end to this. For me, using B777 and A330/40 aircraft on such routes, this is getting by far too much.


I'd like to hear comments and opinions please.

cheers,
Jona L.

1) Is the name "British World" ok to be used in this game? British World Airlines was a real-world airline: Photo of British World B733 and B752

2) You yourself used B733s on multiple frequencies between MAN and the East Coast USA and East coast of Canada against my B752/B763/B772 in DOTM 4...

[Dave4468]

Really only...A320s....have the multiple fleet types

Again, do they? I thought A318, 19, 20 and 21 were the same. Or is the A320-100 its own fleet?

[Shleds]

Thank you all for the info. The depth of the game mechanics here fascinates me, although I have not yet developed a good grasp on all of them.

I just saw the costs of staff training associated with all the engines I had, and it is most likely what brought me down, and I had 15 year leases on all of the 767's thinking that if I lowered my monthly payments, it would help me in the long run, but all those D checks coming in really hurt me.

[yevgeniy]

All MD8x are the same group, same thing with the A318 to A321 (any sub-variant).

And yes D checks are bad, I would only do them on rare aircraft that you need to keep or owned aircraft, otherwise don't do it and return to lessor.

[swiftus27]

Again, do they? I thought A318, 19, 20 and 21 were the same. Or is the A320-100 its own fleet?

sorry, brain fart... I was thinking about something different.