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Author Topic: 747 is it a overweight donkey ?  (Read 1913 times)

theguv316

  • Former member
747 is it a overweight donkey ?
« on: August 25, 2011, 05:50:21 PM »
Just wondering about the 747's have never tried to run them and dont really have the
demend to run alot of them but can they turn a profit on cross atlantic or should i
stick to the same as everyone else 757's /767's

Offline JumboShrimp

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  • Posts: 7551
Re: 747 is it a overweight donkey ?
« Reply #1 on: August 25, 2011, 06:04:20 PM »
Depending on the year.

But in AWS, frequency can really do some damage to 744s with aircraft such as A300, A330, B757, B767...

Offline swiftus27

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Re: 747 is it a overweight donkey ?
« Reply #2 on: August 25, 2011, 06:04:48 PM »
Widebodies are broken for transatlantic flying

Offline ArcherII

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  • Posts: 1997
Re: 747 is it a overweight donkey ?
« Reply #3 on: August 25, 2011, 06:20:44 PM »
It depends whether you get some low priced and obvioulsy seasoned B747s (specially -400). I'm running 7 in MT5 out of Brzil and are turning 800k profit per week, not much at all but they still deliver against easy competiton. 

Offline RushmoreAir

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  • Posts: 900
Re: 747 is it a overweight donkey ?
« Reply #4 on: August 25, 2011, 09:25:23 PM »
In DOTM, I had 747-300s in a high-density configuration (555 seats) running shorthaul routes (500nm) and was making $2.3m/week

Jona L.

  • Former member
Re: 747 is it a overweight donkey ?
« Reply #5 on: August 26, 2011, 10:11:03 PM »
Widebodies are broken for transatlantic flying

You say so... maybe you just failed in it... my B773 make 1.3M/week despite being leased... maybe just about a knowing to play or not...

Offline swiftus27

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Re: 747 is it a overweight donkey ?
« Reply #6 on: August 26, 2011, 11:45:55 PM »
You say so... maybe you just failed in it... my B773 make 1.3M/week despite being leased... maybe just about a knowing to play or not...

without citing specifics, I can't just take conjecture.  

Second, nice crappy comment.  

What does fuel cost?  What is your LF?  Do you have any competition?  What is your seating arrangement?  Are you even out of the initial 4 months of having the plane and are actually PAYING for the plane now?

I ran 772s 772ers 772lrs and 773s... all different directions, some super long haul, others not, some with competition, some without... THEY ALMOST ALL LOST.  None of them came close to netting 1.3mm per week. 

Because if it is "just about a knowing to play or not" why was this thread created:
http://www.airwaysim.com/forum/index.php/topic,33340.0.html

« Last Edit: August 26, 2011, 11:48:42 PM by swiftus27 »

Monk Xion

  • Former member
Re: 747 is it a overweight donkey ?
« Reply #7 on: August 27, 2011, 02:00:07 AM »
without citing specifics, I can't just take conjecture.  

Second, nice crappy comment.  

What does fuel cost?  What is your LF?  Do you have any competition?  What is your seating arrangement?  Are you even out of the initial 4 months of having the plane and are actually PAYING for the plane now?

I ran 772s 772ers 772lrs and 773s... all different directions, some super long haul, others not, some with competition, some without... THEY ALMOST ALL LOST.  None of them came close to netting 1.3mm per week. 

Because if it is "just about a knowing to play or not" why was this thread created:
http://www.airwaysim.com/forum/index.php/topic,33340.0.html


lets play nice now ;D

Jona L.

  • Former member
Re: 747 is it a overweight donkey ?
« Reply #8 on: August 27, 2011, 11:14:31 AM »
without citing specifics, I can't just take conjecture.  

Second, nice crappy comment.  

What does fuel cost?  What is your LF?  Do you have any competition?  What is your seating arrangement?  Are you even out of the initial 4 months of having the plane and are actually PAYING for the plane now?

I ran 772s 772ers 772lrs and 773s... all different directions, some super long haul, others not, some with competition, some without... THEY ALMOST ALL LOST.  None of them came close to netting 1.3mm per week.  

Because if it is "just about a knowing to play or not" why was this thread created:
http://www.airwaysim.com/forum/index.php/topic,33340.0.html



I fly mainly B773 and some B772 (no ERs) on routes between 600NM (as gap fillers) and 5000NM in a 340|64|10 config (773 out of LHR) and a 300|40|5 (772 out of FRA) in MT#5 most of the planes are in my fleet for 1-2.5yrs now and thus DO pay the leases. I have (especially from LHR through DanDantes) decent to harsh competition. Load factors are between 55% and 75% (also in given examples, 75% on 772 and 55% on the 773) To give cites I paste 2 examples of the plane's financial overviews.

[B772 from FRA]

The sums are an estimate of next week's incomes based on previous day.
 Sold tickets    2 110 615 USD
 Line maintenance (A+B)    -24 240 USD
 Insurance    -75 202 USD
 Fuel cost    -419 732 USD
 Route fees (1)    -284 974 USD
 Weekly leasing cost    -372 840 USD
 Total    933 627 USD

[B773 from LHR]

(This plane just returned from C-check and only flew 7/9 of its rotations and is already back high)
The sums are an estimate of next week's incomes based on previous day.
 Sold tickets    1 817 435 USD
 Line maintenance (A+B)    -21 292 USD
 Insurance    -97 530 USD
 Fuel cost    -309 946 USD
 Route fees (1)    -246 123 USD
 Weekly leasing cost    -496 654 USD
 Total    645 890 USD

Of course I will not show my best money makers, in order to keep some corporate secrets ;)

Fuel is dumpling around the $600eds at the moment, but these planes remained profitable even at $800eds..

So indeed I am right in calling you wrong about B772/3. I do agree that A333 wins over B772 (due to lower fuel burn and leasing cost with about equal PAX) I also run them. My biggest secret is fleet commonality by operating only 2 Types (A33X/34X and B77X). With only about 140 a/c I bring a quarterly TSR of $2.5bn in my house.

So as said in previous post: "maybe just about knowing to play or not" :P (not meant as a personal insult, just a statement...)

cheers,
Jona L.
« Last Edit: August 27, 2011, 11:16:43 AM by Jona L. »

Offline JumboShrimp

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Re: 747 is it a overweight donkey ?
« Reply #9 on: August 27, 2011, 03:43:08 PM »
I fly mainly B773 and some B772 (no ERs) on routes between 600NM (as gap fillers) and 5000NM in a 340|64|10 config (773 out of LHR)

Explaining something in general about AWS by pointing to something that happens at LHR is not exactly the best approach, since LHR is exception to the rule.  That is due to higher business and first class demand and LHR being slot limited in general...

Jona L.

  • Former member
Re: 747 is it a overweight donkey ?
« Reply #10 on: August 27, 2011, 04:51:07 PM »
Explaining something in general about AWS by pointing to something that happens at LHR is not exactly the best approach, since LHR is exception to the rule.  That is due to higher business and first class demand and LHR being slot limited in general...


a) You did not quote the part about FRA ;)

b) The business and first class thing had been MASSIVELY (too massive IMO)* reduced (aka the relations are not even close to real life [in v 1.2 it used to be 1:3:6 (roughly) for Y:C:F, dunno yet about v1.3 as I have not collected enough data so far while real life (speaking from Lufthansa pricing) is 1:5:10]

c) Slots have been tweaked as well as of v1.3 (v1.2 in case of DotM) so 3/4 of your points are no longer points. about number 4 see "d)"

d) I do agree about LHR demands but as said in "a)" you didn't quote all...

anyhow, I think I made my point clear.


What I have to add though is:

I agree with you, swiftus, about Super and Ultra LongHaul. Routes over 6000NM are difficult and over 8000NM nearly impossible to make cash on. But as we were talking of trans-atlantic flights which are at maximum (talking of ATH-LAX) 6000NM and normally (the usual EDDF-KXXX or shorter flights) around the 5500NM I heavily disagree (as in previous post).
B777-200LR is a FAIL in AWS in that regard, as it was designed to be optimum used at 7500NM+ routes I tried those in older game worlds (MT#2 under v1.1 engine) and they only made me about 100k/week income on the 8-10kNM routes (LHR-MEL, SYD, AKL) despite being owned.


*IIRC C and F pricing on LongHaul has been cut by about 30% which is completely unfair in relation to real world. In the end this is a simulation and not a game. As someone (can't remember who, sorry) said: the point of a simulation is not to recreate the result but recreate the realistic ways of gaining the goal, which may be a different from reality, as that is highly influenced by other characteristics [such as free fuel for the USSR Aeroflot and nowadays for Emirates] So if regional airlines FAIL in AWS this is not a result of wrong reproduction of reality but more of different outer factors. Many (if not most) regional carriers are run by big airlines or work under a contract for them to provide regional service for bigger airlines and would operate at a loss without such contracts. (as an example Augsburg Airways or Contact Air are contract airlines for Lufthansa and not even de facto subsidiaries.)
So in the end I am of the opinion that we should have kept it the way it was or at least do not have such big tweaks.

(end of book :P )

cheers,
Jona L.
« Last Edit: August 28, 2011, 08:06:43 AM by Jona L. »

 

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