Etiquette

[minerva]

A query about game game etiquette.

I recently had a situation in which I had number of surplus a/c in my fleet; as they were brand new I put them up for lease only.  Several airlines leased the a/c. Then, about six and half game-months later, I saw an opportunity to use those a/c in an expansion and renewal process, so I changed the leasing conditions so the a/c leases could not be renewed beyond their one year leases.  When the leases came due and the a/c came back to me, I received an irate PM from a player whose airline had leased a couple of them, who chided me for not giving him/her advance warning of the change to no renewal.  Now, I had no intention of screwing over other players; circumstances just changed.  The lease conditions were changed with five game-months still to go on them so I assumed all the leasing airlines would notice and had time to plan accordingly.  But I've been mulling this over and wonder if game etiquette dictates that a lessor has some more proactive duty to inform lessees of changed terms in advance? Or should caveat emptor rule, as it tends to in real life?  Any thoughts on whether I/we ought to provide such notice? 

[Dave4468]

I've been in the position of the other player a couple of times. I seemed to solve it just with a polite PM to the owner, they got rid of the restriction. While obviously it is your plane and it is yours to do with what you want there should be a more obvious message to the leasing player about it, either a red box at the leasing screen when you first get the plane saying it can't be renewed. Also if a player changes from renewable to non-renewable there should be an automatic email, like C-Checks and lease extensions.

[Curse]

Your aircraft, your decision. There's no right to for anybody to use YOUR properties if you don't want this anymore.

However, if someone has an airline that is really based on the aircraft of only one lessor it would be nice if the lessor write him a PM - if not, the other guy maybe logs in one day and has no more aircraft.


Maybe some thing for feature request. If a lessor changes the lease conditions, a message sent from some guy out of the much overpayed personal office of the airline should be sent.

[filipebravo]

Your aircraft - your decision. If he doesn't want this to happen, next time he should lease it for 3 years rather than 1. The idea of automatically sending a Message sound nice, though.

[GEnx]

Doesn't the system already issue a warning when a lease is about to expire? Because in that case, I'd say it is completely unnecessary for the lessor to send a PM. If the lessee is caught by surprise that the lease ended, it is his lack of organizational skills that are to blame, not your proper use of property that is rightfully yours.

[Dave4468]

Doesn't the system already issue a warning when a lease is about to expire? Because in that case, I'd say it is completely unnecessary for the lessor to send a PM. If the lessee is caught by surprise that the lease ended, it is his lack of organizational skills that are to blame, not your proper use of property that is rightfully yours.

No, it tells you that the lease is about to expire. It DOESN'T tell you if a player owned aircraft has had it's agreement changed to non-renewable.

[GEnx]

In that case it is still the lessee's responsibility to check whether the aircraft stays in his possession or not, not the lessor's.

[knobbygb]

I agree that it should be OK to take back your aircraft whenever you like (within reason, see below), but I also agree that the automatic message about the changed agreement would be a good idea.

In JA4 I currently have around 20 leased-out a/c and I recently needed some of them back for expansion after a competitor suddenly b/k'd but, just be nice, I actually leased in from outside to cover the demand, even though two or three leases were about to expire. One was just 4 days from expiry and I feel it would have been VERY rude of me to change it at such short notice.

How about if the ability to change the lease from renewable to non-renewable could only be done up to one, or even two months before the expiry?  That, with an automatic message of the change should be enough.

And... on a related note... does anybody agree that it'd be good to be able to change from "lease-only" "to lease or buy" to allow a player to buy an a/c they are currently leasing from you?  I don't believe you can currently do this.

[ICEcoldair881]

I think that was a nice gesture knobbygb!

I find that I just don't bother with changing the conditions on the leases as if I see an opportunity to expand or renew, I just work around those aircraft that are leased out - almost like they are not in my fleet at all. I know that I don't particularly like when airlines change it so that I'm S.O.L in terms of leases on certain aircraft because then I'd have to pick up the slack elsewhere when there may not even be an aircraft that I'm able to lease financially or physically, and I would then lose out big time - all because an airline decided to be a p*** (no offence intended minerva) and call back their aircraft without warning.

To all airlines without leased out aircraft - when looking for an opportunity to expand, work AROUND your leased out aircraft, because if the guy/gal that's using your aircraft is leasing from you versus buying new/from a broker, they're not exactly looking to have to go through the same all over again because you need that aircraft. Save the lessee some trouble and outsource your expansions. It's just a nice gesture on your part.

-ICEcold

[knobbygb]

...and anyway, the aircraft I leased in cost me LESS than the one I was thinking of recalling was earning. So everybody wins.

This is my first game where I've had a lot of leased out a/c - currently about 50 I think.  By the end of the game (JA4) I expect to have around 300.  I reckon they could earn more than the ones I actually have in revenue service. I'll probably be stuck with quite a few unleased ones but what the hell - when new I lease them out at 1.4x value and they pay for themselves in around 4 to 4.5 years anyway. Anything else after that is a bonus.

My general plan for a new a/c is:

Use it for around 12 to 18 months until something better is delivered
Lease it out for 4 to 6 years
Sell it for just under it's current value or D-Check it and sell it for 1.3x value.

With a decent bulk-order/direct purchase and possibly even launch-customer discount I reckon I'm getting free use of aircraft while I'm flying them. Oh GOD I'm turning into Ryanair... NO!

Anyone have other leasing strategy tips?

[slither360]

...and anyway, the aircraft I leased in cost me LESS than the one I was thinking of recalling was earning. So everybody wins.

This is my first game where I've had a lot of leased out a/c - currently about 50 I think.  By the end of the game (JA4) I expect to have around 300.  I reckon they could earn more than the ones I actually have in revenue service. I'll probably be stuck with quite a few unleased ones but what the hell - when new I lease them out at 1.4x value and they pay for themselves in around 4 to 4.5 years anyway. Anything else after that is a bonus.

My general plan for a new a/c is:

Use it for around 12 to 18 months until something better is delivered
Lease it out for 4 to 6 years
Sell it for just under it's current value or D-Check it and sell it for 1.3x value.

With a decent bulk-order/direct purchase and possibly even launch-customer discount I reckon I'm getting free use of aircraft while I'm flying them. Oh GOD I'm turning into Ryanair... NO!

Anyone have other leasing strategy tips?

Keep in mind that when the leases are renewed, they drop to 1/81 of the market value, regardless of the price you sold them for.

[knobbygb]

when the leases are renewed, they drop to 1/81 of the market value, regardless of the price you sold them for

That's true even for aircraft leased out by me?  I must have missed that. Don't think that's a very good system but still, at least they pay for themselves in about six years then.

The whole leasing out system could do with being more flexible in a future version, as it plays such a big part in the game - especially Jet Age, but maybe it's been discussed and I haven't seen it. I'd like to be able to:
Specify minimum or fixed term lease periods.
Provide a list of airlines who are allowed/not allowed to lease my aircraft (useful for alliances).
Allow a lessee to buy an aircraft while they already lease it.
Allow another player to buy an aircraft on installments - buy now and spread the payments over, say, a year.
Have the option that aircraft be automatically put through checks while they're  for sale/lease .
Repossess aircraft when they are not being properly maintained (I've started checking because I just had a nearly new DC9 returned with a condition on about 20% after having no B checks for 10 months.

...but I guess all that's for another thread.

[slither360]

+1 on all of them.

Feature request please.

Cheers,
Bob

[minerva]

Thanks for everyone's thoughts.  I after considering all this, I do think there should be some form of automatic notification given those who hold a lease that the conditions have changed, but I also will be giving warning to players personally from now on, should the situation ever arise again.  Of course, the etiquette might also go the other way.  This morning I discovered that someone who had leased an aircraft from me returned it several months early, one day before its scheduled D check. As a result it is now in D check and I'm out over 1 million because I wasn't online at the time. Not complaining, mind you, just pointing out that the courtesy of advance notice could go both ways.

[schro]

Thanks for everyone's thoughts.  I after considering all this, I do think there should be some form of automatic notification given those who hold a lease that the conditions have changed, but I also will be giving warning to players personally from now on, should the situation ever arise again.  Of course, the etiquette might also go the other way.  This morning I discovered that someone who had leased an aircraft from me returned it several months early, one day before its scheduled D check. As a result it is now in D check and I'm out over 1 million because I wasn't online at the time. Not complaining, mind you, just pointing out that the courtesy of advance notice could go both ways.

Thats what happens when you lease planes in this game.  I had that happen to me in the prior DOTM and it gave me a 4th fleet type for 80 days and ultimatly cost me about 500M in lost profit due to the additional commonality charges. The cost of the D check at 8 million was moot at that point.

[knobbygb]

This morning I discovered that someone who had leased an aircraft from me returned it several months early, one day before its scheduled D check

Yeah, it'd be nice to be warned but....  don't you kind of assume that each aircraft will probably be returned just before the D check is due?

I have my desk full of post-its and other random scraps of paper -  "check in JA4 13th Aug 727 may be returned" etc. etc.  Does it help... not much. I still miss stuff all the time. Losing 500M due to being asleep or out with mates bust hurt though 

Being able to pre-schedule actions such as "cancel lease on xxx aircraft on date xxx" might be a good feature request.

but I also will be giving warning to players personally from now on

I Like.  Great idea.