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Author Topic: When are small airlines going to be realistic?  (Read 4304 times)

Offline Maarten Otto

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Re: When are small airlines going to be realistic?
« Reply #20 on: December 09, 2010, 07:57:01 AM »
The whole concept of the Baby airline is to make it financially possible to operate a fleet of Fairchild Metro's and EMB120's, Cessna's and Shorts... A 100 pax aircraft doesn't fit in that strategy. The 100 pax Ac like the E195 would perfectly fit in the LCC strategy though.

GDK

  • Former member
Re: When are small airlines going to be realistic?
« Reply #21 on: December 09, 2010, 08:04:46 AM »
Yeah. We should make ourselves clear that LCC is not equals to baby airlines.

LostInBKK

  • Former member
Re: When are small airlines going to be realistic?
« Reply #22 on: December 10, 2010, 05:53:19 AM »
LCC = SouthWest Airlines, Ryan Air(Not to be confused with Bryan Air )  ;D Air Asia
Baby = Eurowings sorry can think of any more  :-[

Cheers
LostInBKK

GDK

  • Former member
Re: When are small airlines going to be realistic?
« Reply #23 on: December 10, 2010, 07:57:56 AM »
Well, I think Eurowings is not a baby airlines.
Maybe MASwings and Firefly? But Firefly will soon become LCC next year.

LostInBKK

  • Former member
Re: When are small airlines going to be realistic?
« Reply #24 on: December 10, 2010, 08:36:29 AM »
So what is Eurowings then? Not saying your are wrong just interested what it would be classified as.

Cheers
LostInBKK

GDK

  • Former member
Re: When are small airlines going to be realistic?
« Reply #25 on: December 10, 2010, 10:06:38 AM »
For me it will be a regional or low cost carrier. They got a healthy fleet of regional jets carrying at least 50 pax and even A320.

Personally I would expect a baby airlines to fly planes like Twin Otter, 'baby style' in term of company size and fleet size as well. But that is merely my opinion, I got no idea at all what exactly a baby airlines looks like. :P

Offline Maarten Otto

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Re: When are small airlines going to be realistic?
« Reply #26 on: December 10, 2010, 10:43:21 AM »
IMO the airline can be big... but with planes up to a maximum of 50 seats. Fleet commonality will be crucial for the airline to survive. Operating such airline with 75 EMB120's or Fairchilds should be possible... but your not welcome at the world top 10 airports unless you pay a significant fee for the slots to reflect "lost income" for the airport where they could have had a 777.

GDK

  • Former member
Re: When are small airlines going to be realistic?
« Reply #27 on: December 10, 2010, 02:23:30 PM »
IMO the airline can be big... but with planes up to a maximum of 50 seats. Fleet commonality will be crucial for the airline to survive. Operating such airline with 75 EMB120's or Fairchilds should be possible... but your not welcome at the world top 10 airports unless you pay a significant fee for the slots to reflect "lost income" for the airport where they could have had a 777.

Agree. You won't be welcomed at big airports flying routes with >200 pax with your EMB120. Even if you can afford to pay the slots, you'll get shoot for slot hogging...

ukatlantic

  • Former member
Re: When are small airlines going to be realistic?
« Reply #28 on: December 10, 2010, 02:57:22 PM »
Maybe an idea for the 'baby airlines would be to 'limit' the number of slots they can have each hour of the day at the major airports like LHR, JFK, HKG etc, thus limiting their expansion at these bases but not putting them at a severe disadavantage due to cost. You could for example limit them to 1 slot every 15 minutes or 4 per hour which over the course of a day if they were to fly 24/7 (which they probably wouldn't) would total 96 per day or 672 slots a week.  In addition maybe limiting the number of baby carriers able to set up at the major airports would help too.

As for the LCC maybe a restriction on them is that they cannot operate out of and into the major airports as mentioned above and have to stick to the smaller airports eg London Gatwick, London Stansted, London Luton etc etc. You don't see the like's of Ryan Air & EasyJet flying into Paris CDG or LHR as the costs are higher and they can't negotiate a discount to take their business to these bases whereas if they fly to Glasgow Prestwick as the airport is under utilised to a degree they have room to negotiate somewhat on the price they have to pay for the slots they use. 

I would imagine if we ever want ultra realistic LCC and Baby Airlines in this game, then we as players would need to assist SAMI as much as possible with the gathering of accurate statistics on where the LCC operate from and to as well as data on the baby airlines that are 'feeding' pax to the main Int'l airports that can then be used to model pax demand etc for these two concept's.

I guess though it depends on how realistic you want this simulation to be, and if SAMI even has spare capcity to implement any of thee ideas (which would be cool if he could!)

GDK

  • Former member
Re: When are small airlines going to be realistic?
« Reply #29 on: December 10, 2010, 05:26:12 PM »
Small planes are usually not allowed to land at major big airports. Aren't they?

Offline swiftus27

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Re: When are small airlines going to be realistic?
« Reply #30 on: December 10, 2010, 11:08:59 PM »
Small planes are usually not allowed to land at major big airports. Aren't they?

they wont be sold the slot if the airport wants the slot to be used by a larger aircraft.

LostInBKK

  • Former member
Re: When are small airlines going to be realistic?
« Reply #31 on: December 11, 2010, 06:00:33 AM »
Maybe an idea for the 'baby airlines would be to 'limit' the number of slots they can have each hour of the day at the major airports like LHR, JFK, HKG etc, thus limiting their expansion at these bases but not putting them at a severe disadavantage due to cost. You could for example limit them to 1 slot every 15 minutes or 4 per hour which over the course of a day if they were to fly 24/7 (which they probably wouldn't) would total 96 per day or 672 slots a week.  In addition maybe limiting the number of baby carriers able to set up at the major airports would help too.

As for the LCC maybe a restriction on them is that they cannot operate out of and into the major airports as mentioned above and have to stick to the smaller airports eg London Gatwick, London Stansted, London Luton etc etc. You don't see the like's of Ryan Air & EasyJet flying into Paris CDG or LHR as the costs are higher and they can't negotiate a discount to take their business to these bases whereas if they fly to Glasgow Prestwick as the airport is under utilised to a degree they have room to negotiate somewhat on the price they have to pay for the slots they use. 

I would imagine if we ever want ultra realistic LCC and Baby Airlines in this game, then we as players would need to assist SAMI as much as possible with the gathering of accurate statistics on where the LCC operate from and to as well as data on the baby airlines that are 'feeding' pax to the main Int'l airports that can then be used to model pax demand etc for these two concept's.

I guess though it depends on how realistic you want this simulation to be, and if SAMI even has spare capcity to implement any of thee ideas (which would be cool if he could!)

I don't think LCC or Baby Airlines should be limited with where they can fly. I also don't think they should pay more than other airlines for slots at larger airports. BUT they should certainly be limited to where they can be based. I also think they should be very limited in the choice of aircraft. Ryan Air are never going to buy Concorde no matter how much money they have.

if we can all agree what is a Baby Airline then I am happy to do some research as to how they operate.

Cheers
LostInBKK

Offline ACDennison

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Re: When are small airlines going to be realistic?
« Reply #32 on: December 11, 2010, 06:25:00 AM »
Just a thought from the other perspective - as a new player I actually like the variety and options open to me, I have started out as a ~50pax Turboprop Regional, but my next move is going to be some ~20pax to pick up the chaff, and then I really hope to buy a couple of 'proper airliners' and do some LH, partly for the fun, partly as there are not too many other viable options for a late starting player!  :)

One possible vote of support though - I would not be adverse to limiting Small a/c to airports of size 4 or less, and Medium a/c to airports of size 5 or less (although I think Size 5 is the max?)  That seems reasonable to me to stop the H'row slots issues a bit, but I wouldn't want to see the bar any lower, or Small a/c become utterly useless to most players...
« Last Edit: December 17, 2010, 03:09:25 PM by ACDennison »
 

Offline raptorva

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Re: When are small airlines going to be realistic?
« Reply #33 on: December 11, 2010, 08:41:24 AM »
I'd say baby airline could be any airline operating aircraft under 100 seats. Reason being that airliners such as the ERJ's, CRJ's and Fokker jets can be used along with Avros/BAe's which are all under the 'feederliner' brand of aircraft. Maybe the restriction could be that 'baby airlines' are not able to purchase aircraft in the large category or above? that rules out all the mainline jets like the 737 and A320 anyway and uses a system that is already in the game.


LostInBKK

  • Former member
Re: When are small airlines going to be realistic?
« Reply #34 on: December 12, 2010, 07:38:59 AM »
Are we any closer in coming up with a Real Life example of a baby airline?

Cheers
LostInBKK

Offline Maarten Otto

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Re: When are small airlines going to be realistic?
« Reply #35 on: December 12, 2010, 09:24:57 AM »
It's not about real life examples as this game is not meant to be a copy of the real world.... This is all about making it financially possible to run an airline with small aircraft like a Cessna, Fairchild or EMB120 because with the current system overhead will kill you.

GDK

  • Former member
Re: When are small airlines going to be realistic?
« Reply #36 on: December 12, 2010, 11:55:43 AM »
We don't need 3*required amount of crew to run a small aircraft. Yes, we might need it if you fly big aircraft, but not small aircraft like Fairchild.
We don't need 2 customer service worker per routes if you fly short distance routes to nearby cities.
We don't need 1 planner to take care of 1 routes, we are not flying long haul...

Offline alexgv1

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Re: When are small airlines going to be realistic?
« Reply #37 on: December 12, 2010, 02:35:48 PM »
First of all I don't think you should have to choose which airline you should base yourself on at the beginning of the game. If you want to run a LCC then run your airline as such by the decisions you make. You use a cheaper pricing strategy so to get the most money you must get maximum fleet utilization, have quick (30 min) turnarounds, have low fleet commonality costs, use high density seating, save money on airport costs, have lower staff costs (less staff per passenger).

I just don't think airlines should just be limited to LCC or legacy by being typecasted (because you ticked a box when you founded your airline, you should evolve your business strategy as your airline evolves) as most airlines these days use a hybrid of the two. For example Aer Lingus adopted a LCC pricing strategy with the short haul routes similar to Ryanair's to bail itself out of its recent financial trouble. Another example is that although flyBE is a low cost carrier it does offer premium services like choosing your seat or premium classes.

Things to consider with LCCs:

1) City based demand will greatly help LCCs because they can access the big cities via the lower cost airports (Frankfurt Hahn instead of Frankfurt Main, Stockholm Skvasta instead of Arlanda, Chicago Midway instead of O'Hare, etc, etc).
2) 30 minute turnarounds need to be feasible on 737 sized jets. This is possible using higher and more motivated/overworked staff.
3) LCCs would need to be allowed more based, even with the minimum aircraft based there, either that or ABCBA routes or even ABCDCBA routes where it flies the rounds and returns to the base at the end of the flying day.
4) LCCs do not necessarily compete with other standard airlines for passengers, because their low prices open up a new market sector of the people who previously couldn't afford to fly and now can, so they are drawing pax from the new market as much as existing ones (demonstrated in the picture below, don't start yapping about copyright... I have the right to use it).

[attachment expired]
« Last Edit: December 12, 2010, 02:57:57 PM by alexgv1 »
CEO of South Where Airlines (SWA|WH)

GDK

  • Former member
Re: When are small airlines going to be realistic?
« Reply #38 on: December 12, 2010, 03:43:02 PM »
First of all I don't think you should have to choose which airline you should base yourself on at the beginning of the game. If you want to run a LCC then run your airline as such by the decisions you make. You use a cheaper pricing strategy so to get the most money you must get maximum fleet utilization, have quick (30 min) turnarounds, have low fleet commonality costs, use high density seating, save money on airport costs, have lower staff costs (less staff per passenger).

What we concern about is the current system does not support these kind of miracle. You can simply say it 'run your airline by the decision you made' but the system don't create new demand when you drop your ticket price. The system don't allow you to run in good condition without 'required amount' of staff. The system never allow the aircraft to go on air like you wish when your turnaround is lower than the suggested time (even with the minimum suggested time you'll still get 30% flight cancelled). That is what exactly this thread is about, we are requesting the system to be edited to allow the miracles.

Offline alexgv1

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Re: When are small airlines going to be realistic?
« Reply #39 on: December 12, 2010, 04:39:28 PM »
What we concern about is the current system does not support these kind of miracle. You can simply say it 'run your airline by the decision you made' but the system don't create new demand when you drop your ticket price. The system don't allow you to run in good condition without 'required amount' of staff. The system never allow the aircraft to go on air like you wish when your turnaround is lower than the suggested time (even with the minimum suggested time you'll still get 30% flight cancelled). That is what exactly this thread is about, we are requesting the system to be edited to allow the miracles.

Yes that's exactly what this thread has developed into because at the moment LCCs and regionals are never going to be possible in the current system so the only way to implement them is in future builds of the game engine. For example, as I said above, when city based demand is incorporated then it is one step to allowing LCCs to be feesible. I imagine there will be changes to the pricing, scheduling and staffing systems in the future and these can be changed with these types of airlines in mind. I know well that they will not be possible as the game stands currently. These are my ideas of the directions I believe the developments should take to make things possible.
CEO of South Where Airlines (SWA|WH)

 

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