AirwaySim
Online Airline Management Simulation
Login
Username
Password
 
or login using:
 
My Account
Username:
E-mail:
Edit account
» Achievements
» Logout
Game Credits
Credit balance: 0 Cr
Buy credits
» Credit history
» Credits FAQ

Author Topic: [-] Number of aircraft based at an airport  (Read 2116 times)

Offline Sami

  • Administrator
  • Members
  • Posts: 15530
    • AirwaySim - Are you the next Richard Branson?
[-] Number of aircraft based at an airport
« on: September 30, 2010, 08:50:48 AM »
The next improvement to bases feature will be the allowance of basing a dynamic number of planes at each airport.

This number will be based on the "true" apron capacity of the airport and how many aircraft other airlines are basing at the airport. In other words you couldn't base 50 planes at a small regional airport but you can have hundreds at major intl. station.

The numbers based on this will be purely calculated, not based on stats as that's not something that can be found. But to form the calculation methods I will need some statistical background anyway. Just saw for example from another link that MUC airport has 135 aircraft parking stands (plus the maintenance area capacity).

Now things that I'd need is more info like the one about MUC, and also thoughts that "if we have 135 parking stands, how many aircraft could actually use the airport as home base". The answer to that question in real world of course depends on how long routes are flown and how often the planes are in home base, and are they at the same time - but I'm keeping this simple. So for example could MUC cater for example max. 300 planes based at that airport?
« Last Edit: May 12, 2014, 07:40:31 PM by sami »

Offline JumboShrimp

  • Members
  • Posts: 6810
Re: Number of aircraft based at an airport
« Reply #1 on: September 30, 2010, 08:37:57 PM »
I think the parking space also depends on size of the plane.  I just last month drove by airport in Aspen, Colorado, and there were 10s of small planes parked there.  I should have counted them to get a ballpark, but it might have been > 50.  Of course, you can't park that many 777s there.  So the unit count is not a perfect measure.

I think the best proxy for this figure from the data that we already have is overall demand.  That is, I probably would not bother with the a/c count and limits.  The demand of a given airport could be met by flying 757s, certain number of them.  Or, it can be met by flying Dash 8s - a lot more of them.  Dash 8 is a much smaller a/c, and given a parking capacity, you can park a lot more of them than 757s.

One area that would benefit from numeric limit is slot hogging, only to introduce a new one - parking space hogging.

Another unfortunate effect could be that if the ceiling applies to all airlines based at the airport combined, it could limit competition even further.  An dominant ailine at a large airport would take up majority of parking spots, eventually bankrupt all the competition, and as the competition bankrupts, the dominant airline will just take up the freed parking, and make impossible for a new player to even enter the airport.  What would be a point of a new player to start at an airport, only to find out later that there are only 10 parking spaces left...

I think one way to have more competition is to have fewer or no limits.  There is only so much demand at any given airport.  Let the players figure out how to fill it, with what kinds of and with what number of planes.  If a player bases too many a/c, oversupplies too many routes, the free market will get him and he will BK.

Actions that the Sim wants to discourage would have higher pricing (slot rental rather than 1 time fee), algorithms adjusted (to reduce the frequency effect).  And let the free market take care of the rest.

Offline Sami

  • Administrator
  • Members
  • Posts: 15530
    • AirwaySim - Are you the next Richard Branson?
Re: Number of aircraft based at an airport
« Reply #2 on: September 30, 2010, 10:19:24 PM »
The way to get rid of both top-20 hubbing and fixed 70 plane per base limit is making this feature... (Decided already)


And the parking psn's won't be ordered or saved like slots, it would only depend on the number of aircraft each airline has there and has on order for near future. And if overall total capacity is exceeded, there wouldn't be chance to place / base anymore planes to that airport due to too small capacity. Apron extensions for parking spaces could be added as constructable (<-- even a word?) item then later.

So assuming capacity would be 100 planes, airline X has 20 planes based there, Y has 20 and Z has 30 (= 70), then there would be a chance to base additional 30 planes there before the airport is considered full. A very rough implementation but this is how it basically works in reality too - you can't stuff more planes to an airport than it can handle. Slots and others also restrict of course too. But the actual numbers would be large enough that in normal cases pax demand or slots will run out first. If MUC has 130 airport stands available I guess the basing limit could be around 300-400 mid size jets?
« Last Edit: September 30, 2010, 10:45:05 PM by sami »

Offline JumboShrimp

  • Members
  • Posts: 6810
Re: Number of aircraft based at an airport
« Reply #3 on: September 30, 2010, 11:55:45 PM »
Sami,

That actually sounds really good.  Are you planning on having a charge for parking?  Anytime there is something that may be in short supply, good way to manage the shortage is by pricing it.  Even per hour on the ground, but that may be too much work to calculate.

But if the likelihood is that an airport will likely run out of slots before it runs out of parking, than it may not ba a problem.

Another thing is: is every plane going to take up one unit of parking?  (small = very large)?  I guess for simplicity, that may be the easiest way to implement it.

As far as ratio of plane parking capacity vs. plane limit, I guess 5 ratio might be good for the limit.  A very extreme case in my schedule, with a plane on 4 LH flights is ~8 hrs + 5 hrs for A check, which is 13 hrs out of 168 available hours per week on the ground, which is about ~8% of the time, 1/.08 = ~13.  Meaning in this extreme case, 1 parking spot would accomodate 13 aircraft.

Another extreme case might be a short range regional aircraft, spending 8 hours on the ground per day (56 hours) + 5 hours for A check.  That would result in ~3 planes per parking spot.  The reason I picked 5 is that there are a lot more of the smaller planes than very large planes.

Possibility to expand apron in the future would be great too, making it a softer limit...

Offline Kazari

  • Members
  • Posts: 467
Re: Number of aircraft based at an airport
« Reply #4 on: October 01, 2010, 03:12:57 AM »
One way to do this easily would be to use a certain number of seats as a proxy for a parking space. That would take care of the 777 vs. Dash 8 conundrum.

1. Decide what your unit will be. One 752's maximum seating, for example, equals one parking space. 238Y, for example. I assume that you have dimensions in the database somewhere that would do this better

2. Airport percent size should determine the number of spaces.

So...

* A 757 would equal 1 space
* A 777 would equal 1.86 spaces.
* A Dash 8 would equal 0.32 spaces.

... etc.

Then it's a simple equation that you don't have to think on too much.

I am wondering how this would go with city-based demand, though.

twistedraisin

  • Former member
Re: Number of aircraft based at an airport
« Reply #5 on: October 02, 2010, 02:15:32 AM »
* A 757 would equal 1 space
* A 777 would equal 1.86 spaces.
* A Dash 8 would equal 0.32 spaces.

I think this is an excellent way to base a proxy calculation. I think the calculation should be based on the mean of the seats available across all aircraft types at any given year, though, to represent the appropriate airport size through the ages.

so: (A1+A[1..n]) / n

Offline alexgv1

  • Members
  • Posts: 2222
Re: Number of aircraft based at an airport
« Reply #6 on: October 03, 2010, 03:10:51 PM »
Not to be disrespectful or patronising to previous posters but...

The thing with airports is that they have stands, not just a generic area for parking like a car park. These are set locations which are linked with a set departure gate in the terminal and each one can accommodate one and only one aircraft at any given time. So a Dash 8 would take up the same space as a 777, they would both fit into one stand/gate which has all the required facilities for an aircraft like stairs/jetways, turnaround facilities, baggage carts etc. The only way around this is that you get varying sizes of stands (small/medium/large/v.large and ramps for small GA aircraft), but it's not uncommon that aircraft like 737s are put into large stands which could accomodate a 747 when all they need is a small or medium stand.

This means that the maximum capacity of an airport is not fixed as it depends whether it is filled with large planes, small planes or a mixture, i.e. an apron can accommodate a set number of aircraft at a given time, not a set number of seats.

If you take a look at this chart for London Gatwick it might make things clear, you get aircraft as large as BA 777s and as small as Aer Arann ATRs but the smaller aircraft will generally fill up the large stands as the airport is catered towards larger aircraft. Pretty much all the stands here are medium and large if I recall correctly.
CEO of South Where Airlines (SWA|WH)

d2031k

  • Former member
Re: Number of aircraft based at an airport
« Reply #7 on: October 04, 2010, 04:52:18 PM »
Not to be disrespectful or patronising to previous posters but...

The thing with airports is that they have stands, not just a generic area for parking like a car park. These are set locations which are linked with a set departure gate in the terminal and each one can accommodate one and only one aircraft at any given time. So a Dash 8 would take up the same space as a 777, they would both fit into one stand/gate which has all the required facilities for an aircraft like stairs/jetways, turnaround facilities, baggage carts etc. The only way around this is that you get varying sizes of stands (small/medium/large/v.large and ramps for small GA aircraft), but it's not uncommon that aircraft like 737s are put into large stands which could accomodate a 747 when all they need is a small or medium stand.

This means that the maximum capacity of an airport is not fixed as it depends whether it is filled with large planes, small planes or a mixture, i.e. an apron can accommodate a set number of aircraft at a given time, not a set number of seats.

If you take a look at this chart for London Gatwick it might make things clear, you get aircraft as large as BA 777s and as small as Aer Arann ATRs but the smaller aircraft will generally fill up the large stands as the airport is catered towards larger aircraft. Pretty much all the stands here are medium and large if I recall correctly.

A system that modelled this concept is certainly more favourable in my eyes. 

Having a certain percentages of small/medium/large/very large stands/gates could also help alleviate the problem of slot hogging too.  A lack of 'small' spaces would mean that larger aircraft had to be used on certain routes.  Whilst I know one of the core ideas around AWS is freedom of choice for players to be able to operate how they want, a system with stand/gate types could help form a natural regulation and encourage players to plan more effectively.  Aircraft are already categorised by size in AWS, so hopefully this could perhaps help?

Offline Maarten Otto

  • Members
  • Posts: 1315
    • My photo site
Re: Number of aircraft based at an airport
« Reply #8 on: October 06, 2010, 05:33:00 PM »
Okay...

But what if you decide to only operate Dash8's or Saab 2000's on domestic routes from, Lets say Cardiff. Sure you can deploy 30 of them for a domestic market... but will this system allow you to do that? Or does the game force you into operating a business model you don't like?

I operated several airlines... from those using A380's all the way down to an airline with 75 Embrear 120's.  

How smaller the plane, more fun you gain is my experience as it makes operating at a profit a lot more difficult then having 95 A300's in the air.

My biggest fear is that this system will force some players to give up their preferred way of playing AWS...

thedr2

  • Former member
Re: Number of aircraft based at an airport
« Reply #9 on: October 06, 2010, 08:04:13 PM »
Sami,

That actually sounds really good.  Are you planning on having a charge for parking?  Anytime there is something that may be in short supply, good way to manage the shortage is by pricing it.  Even per hour on the ground, but that may be too much work to calculate.

But if the likelihood is that an airport will likely run out of slots before it runs out of parking, than it may not ba a problem.

Another thing is: is every plane going to take up one unit of parking?  (small = very large)?  I guess for simplicity, that may be the easiest way to implement it.

As far as ratio of plane parking capacity vs. plane limit, I guess 5 ratio might be good for the limit.  A very extreme case in my schedule, with a plane on 4 LH flights is ~8 hrs + 5 hrs for A check, which is 13 hrs out of 168 available hours per week on the ground, which is about ~8% of the time, 1/.08 = ~13.  Meaning in this extreme case, 1 parking spot would accomodate 13 aircraft.

Another extreme case might be a short range regional aircraft, spending 8 hours on the ground per day (56 hours) + 5 hours for A check.  That would result in ~3 planes per parking spot.  The reason I picked 5 is that there are a lot more of the smaller planes than very large planes.

Possibility to expand apron in the future would be great too, making it a softer limit...

Just one point worth adding. Is that you should probably pull the number down a bit, as those aircraft are likely to be on the ground at roughly the same time (i.e. most short haul aircraft are parked up at night, so at max capacity at a big regional airport you could have three times the number of aircraft wanting to park than the airport can actually cater for)

coopdogyo

  • Former member
Re: Number of aircraft based at an airport
« Reply #10 on: October 07, 2010, 05:16:18 AM »
Would we still be limited to four bases total with this new system? Also wouldn't this just push plane and slot hoarding even further because wouldn't airlines grab a whole bunch of planes to get as much space at a base as possible also would it provoke players to take the commonality hit order planes from as many different lines as possible so they can get planes as fast as possible?

Jona L.

  • Former member
Re: Number of aircraft based at an airport
« Reply #11 on: October 14, 2010, 05:17:48 PM »
Would we still be limited to four bases total with this new system? Also wouldn't this just push plane and slot hoarding even further because wouldn't airlines grab a whole bunch of planes to get as much space at a base as possible also would it provoke players to take the commonality hit order planes from as many different lines as possible so they can get planes as fast as possible?

I always use many production lines the same time, to get my planes ddelivered fast (e.g. B737NG and A320fam. same time.... A330/340 + B777, B757 and A300 etc....) that is not forbidden, and is just successful, if you are big already, because otherwise you cannot bare the image hit!

Jona L.

Offline Sami

  • Administrator
  • Members
  • Posts: 15530
    • AirwaySim - Are you the next Richard Branson?
Re: Number of aircraft based at an airport
« Reply #12 on: October 23, 2010, 07:23:10 PM »
just food for thought, and notepad to myself, number of aircraft based in various airports, counting also planes not scheduled.

Game World - MT#2
Code: [Select]
VHHH 1197
KATL 658
WSSS 560
LFPG 508
KJFK 438
EGLL 389
ZBAA 348
FAJS 323
RJTT 310
RJBB 297
KDFW 280
KIAH 268
ZSPD 265
OTBD 259
VTBS 231
SBGR 205
EPWA 203
EGKK 200
OIIE 199
RJAA 194
EDDF 185
KORD 173
LIMC 159
KMCO 157
OKBK 156
YSSY 155
WMKK 151
OERK 150
ZGGG 137
KPHL 136
LIRF 136
MMMX 127


Dunno how these compare to number of planes based in reality at those airports?

Offline alexgv1

  • Members
  • Posts: 2222
Re: Number of aircraft based at an airport
« Reply #13 on: November 10, 2010, 04:45:09 PM »
Someone has answered some of those in another thread Sami:
http://www.airwaysim.com/forum/index.php/topic,26411.0.html
CEO of South Where Airlines (SWA|WH)

Offline Sigma

  • Members
  • Posts: 1920
Re: Number of aircraft based at an airport
« Reply #14 on: November 10, 2010, 05:06:42 PM »
Someone has answered some of those in another thread Sami:
http://www.airwaysim.com/forum/index.php/topic,26411.0.html


Those aren't the numbers "based" there.  They're simply the total fleets of those airlines and their respective main hubs.  There's no telling where those aircraft are actually based out of in all cases and, even so, what "based" really means for that particular airline.

Offline alexgv1

  • Members
  • Posts: 2222
Re: Number of aircraft based at an airport
« Reply #15 on: November 10, 2010, 10:35:08 PM »
Well it gives a general idea, as there are rarely more then one major carrier based at an airport in the real world.

Okay... LHR might have BMI as well as BA, AMS, may have had Martinair as well as KLM, etc.

The point is that it is some relevant data which might be useful so I thought I'd try to help.

I'm not in the mood for an argument so take it or leave it.
CEO of South Where Airlines (SWA|WH)

Ansettaddict123

  • Former member
Re: Number of aircraft based at an airport
« Reply #16 on: November 25, 2010, 12:54:50 AM »
Well, if such a thing were to be implemented, I think myself and my fleet of 106 xians would be screwed  :laugh:

Bolier Dweller

  • Former member
Re: Number of aircraft based at an airport
« Reply #17 on: December 05, 2010, 10:15:22 PM »
I like this idea, brings a lot of reality to the game. Would this mean each airline would have to pay per gate?  If this is the case can a airline sell slots at it's gate to another airline? or share with a alliance member?

Offline BobTheCactus

  • Members
  • Posts: 1244
    • AeroBlogger.com
Re: Number of aircraft based at an airport
« Reply #18 on: January 01, 2011, 08:25:34 PM »
I don't like the idea because of this:
In other words you couldn't base 50 planes at a small regional airport but you can have hundreds at major intl. station
Since routes from regional airport usually don't have more demand than 50-100 pax, airlines which operate from these airports need more (smaller) aircraft to operate routes. I think that this feature is just going to make it easier to hub at the (already overcrowded) major airports, and cause airlines to move away from smaller regional bases.
Editor of AeroBlogger
If you're interested in blogging on aviation 3x/month or more:
http://AeroBlogger.com/Write

Offline Sigma

  • Members
  • Posts: 1920
Re: Number of aircraft based at an airport
« Reply #19 on: January 01, 2011, 09:56:20 PM »
I don't like the idea because of this:Since routes from regional airport usually don't have more demand than 50-100 pax, airlines which operate from these airports need more (smaller) aircraft to operate routes. I think that this feature is just going to make it easier to hub at the (already overcrowded) major airports, and cause airlines to move away from smaller regional bases.

Since an airport's demand is based off its relative size (at least how demand works today) it would be very easy for sami to ensure that his calculation of aircraft limits at a particular airport are sufficient to meet the demand to it.  Clearly any limitation that made it difficult or impossible for an airport's demand to be met due its inability to handle the aircraft necessary to fulfill it wouldn't make any sense at all.

Since one of the primary reasons for doing this is to move players from major airports to regional ones, by limiting the aircraft that can be based at major airports and keep said players from spamming them with thousands of small planes, it would be rather shortsighted if it caused regional airports to be less viable than they are today.

 

WARNING! This website is not compatible with the old version of Internet Explorer you are using.

If you are using the latest version please turn OFF the compatibility mode.