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Author Topic: Whatever runway you prefer sir... (take off from taxiway)  (Read 1591 times)

Offline Maarten Otto

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Whatever runway you prefer sir... (take off from taxiway)
« on: February 12, 2010, 11:43:40 AM »
According to the Dutch ATC site a KLM Boeing 737 took of from a taxiway yesterday (Wednesday) evening.



A quick and loose translation of the major part of the article from www.nu.nl

"The aircraft was cleared to take off from the Zwanenburg baan (36C) but took off from the parallel taxiway instead. According to air traffic control the aircraft departed without problems, but without adhering to the procedures.

All three parties involved (KLM, LVNL, Schiphol) will not comment further on the matter.

The incident was reported to the Onderzoeksraad voor Veiligheid (Investigation Board) which will investigate the incident. According to a spokesman, this is a runway incursion and it is classified as a serious incident.

The president of the Dutch ALPA, Evert van Zwol, speculates that recent snowfall might have played a roll in the incident.

« Last Edit: February 12, 2010, 02:55:39 PM by Maarten Otto »

Offline swiftus27

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Re: Whatever runway you prefer sir... (take off from taxiway)
« Reply #1 on: February 12, 2010, 02:03:07 PM »
Seriously?  How can this happen?

In Europe, you are always supposed to get clearance to enter the runway and then are required to hold short until you get permission to leave.  This is not only a failure of the pilots, it is a failure on who was in the tower in charge of departures that day.

Offline Maarten Otto

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Re: Whatever runway you prefer sir... (take off from taxiway)
« Reply #2 on: February 12, 2010, 02:57:07 PM »
whoooohoooo.... wait.

As long as the investigation takes we should not blame anyone.

Patience my friend.

mikk_13

  • Former member
Re: Whatever runway you prefer sir... (take off from taxiway)
« Reply #3 on: February 12, 2010, 04:24:41 PM »
Snow makes this very difficult. This is not the first or last time this has happened, especially in reduced visibility.

Yb

  • Former member
Re: Whatever runway you prefer sir... (take off from taxiway)
« Reply #4 on: February 12, 2010, 04:47:37 PM »
Snow makes this very difficult. This is not the first or last time this has happened, especially in reduced visibility.

Yes exactly. He may thought he is on the runway but before anyone told the plane he was at cruise speed above the airport.

d2031k

  • Former member
Re: Whatever runway you prefer sir... (take off from taxiway)
« Reply #5 on: February 12, 2010, 05:04:50 PM »
Someone will be getting a telling off!

There are stop bars and flashing lights at all runway entrances for the pilots and ATC also have Surface Movement Radar at Schiphol like many large airports.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Ground_radar_EHAM.jpg

This article is also very interesting on the matter - http://82.94.179.196/index.php/Runway_Incursion

Offline RushmoreAir

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Re: Whatever runway you prefer sir... (take off from taxiway)
« Reply #6 on: February 12, 2010, 05:07:52 PM »
Just like the Delta accident in Atlanta.

Offline swiftus27

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Re: Whatever runway you prefer sir... (take off from taxiway)
« Reply #7 on: February 12, 2010, 05:45:59 PM »
I think the Delta incident was landing, which is just as interesting as we have all seen the amount of lights in front of the runway that show approach.

And the person above was right.  There are so many colored lights that demark different things. 

In Europe, doesn't someone always have to hold short from the runway and wait permission to even turn on to one?   I know that you have to get permission to pull back from the gate, permission to taxi, permission to cross any runway....  So, that would mean that some pilot should have said Flight XXXX is holding short of runway XX....  Then they have to get clearance to takeoff from that runway as well.

Someone dropped the ball.   Does anyone have a linkable airport diagram there.

LOT767

  • Former member
Re: Whatever runway you prefer sir... (take off from taxiway)
« Reply #8 on: February 12, 2010, 05:55:41 PM »
This reminds me of the time the Continental 757 landed on a taxiway at Newark or Jfk can't remember.

EYguy

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Re: Whatever runway you prefer sir... (take off from taxiway)
« Reply #9 on: February 12, 2010, 07:57:08 PM »
I heard that in some airports (especially the ones with old runways) it is difficult to see the pavement even when it's raining... The glare of taxi lights, the scrapped paint on the tarmac... Everything helps not to show properly the signals on the ground! Anyway, a taxiway is much narrower than a runway... ;)

LOT767

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Re: Whatever runway you prefer sir... (take off from taxiway)
« Reply #10 on: February 12, 2010, 09:31:33 PM »
LOL whats even more funny about this that it all happens at an airlines hub, A continental jet landed on a taxiway at Newark, and Delta landed on a taxiway in Atlanta and now a KLM jet taking off from a taxiway in Amsterdam. What are the odd's you think a pilot would know the ins and outs of his airlines hub airports.

ICEcoldair881

  • Former member
Re: Whatever runway you prefer sir... (take off from taxiway)
« Reply #11 on: February 12, 2010, 10:08:21 PM »
LOL whats even more funny about this that it all happens at an airlines hub, A continental jet landed on a taxiway at Newark, and Delta landed on a taxiway in Atlanta and now a KLM jet taking off from a taxiway in Amsterdam. What are the odd's you think a pilot would know the ins and outs of his airlines hub airports.

what irony!  :laugh:

@Daveos I don't know if you've even been in the cockpit of a plane when there's a snow storm....you're relying mostly on what 3-inch visibility you have to find runway signs, and if it's during the day, the lights aren't on because it wastes electricity and they are too bright (seeing as their for night-flying). And if the storm was over and all that was left was snow-covered runways, taxiways etc you wouldn't even be able to see the lights, nevermind use them to find your way to the runway, which you probably wouldn't be able to see in the first place. Also, the ground radar isn't used that much because they are too busy to look on their radar screens and the ground radar. it's just too hectic. not to mention, if you've seen a ground radar in person, they lag a bit so when an aircraft suddenly goes faster than what anything else is on the radar, it looks normal as all it is, is just a blip that is getting father down said taxiway. they only would realize that he lifted off when the blip suddenly disappeared. that's most likely what happened. ;) there are also a number of other variables that could have been present when this happened that could have helped cause the incursion.

ICEcold

d2031k

  • Former member
Re: Whatever runway you prefer sir... (take off from taxiway)
« Reply #12 on: February 12, 2010, 10:36:12 PM »
what irony!  :laugh:

@Daveos I don't know if you've even been in the cockpit of a plane when there's a snow storm....you're relying mostly on what 3-inch visibility you have to find runway signs, and if it's during the day, the lights aren't on because it wastes electricity and they are too bright (seeing as their for night-flying). And if the storm was over and all that was left was snow-covered runways, taxiways etc you wouldn't even be able to see the lights, nevermind use them to find your way to the runway, which you probably wouldn't be able to see in the first place. Also, the ground radar isn't used that much because they are too busy to look on their radar screens and the ground radar. it's just too hectic. not to mention, if you've seen a ground radar in person, they lag a bit so when an aircraft suddenly goes faster than what anything else is on the radar, it looks normal as all it is, is just a blip that is getting father down said taxiway. they only would realize that he lifted off when the blip suddenly disappeared. that's most likely what happened. ;) there are also a number of other variables that could have been present when this happened that could have helped cause the incursion.

ICEcold

Hmmm, interesting - cheers.  I was just surprised that it could happen.  Do they not deem the airport unsuitable for flying in a blizzard/snow storm or when the taxiways are covered in the white stuff?

Offline Runner

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Re: Whatever runway you prefer sir... (take off from taxiway)
« Reply #13 on: February 12, 2010, 10:45:28 PM »
We can all start blaming the pilots, but the fact that is was dark, and SPL was pretty snowed in might have had something to do with it  ;). Clearly this was a pilot error, but that doesn't automaticaly rule out other causes.

We'll just have to wait for the report!

Offline Maarten Otto

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Re: Whatever runway you prefer sir... (take off from taxiway)
« Reply #14 on: February 12, 2010, 11:44:04 PM »
SPL isn't correct these days.

Its AMS and geographicly the lowest airport in the world (3,6 metres below sea level) if I have to believe wikipedia.

Offline Runner

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Re: Whatever runway you prefer sir... (take off from taxiway)
« Reply #15 on: February 13, 2010, 07:27:42 AM »
Ik zeg gewoon altijd SPL (Schiphol). Officieel is het inderdaad AMS natuurlijk! ;)

Translation:
I always just say SPL (Schiphol). Officially it's AMS off course! ;)

Branmuffin

  • Former member
Re: Whatever runway you prefer sir... (take off from taxiway)
« Reply #16 on: February 13, 2010, 08:08:31 AM »
I think the Delta incident was landing, which is just as interesting as we have all seen the amount of lights in front of the runway that show approach.

Before you judge the situation, please at least be familiar with the facts.  
- The crew had declared a medical emergency (factor #1), and instead of landing on the original intended arrival runway (27L) they were offered a sidestep to runway 27R by ATC, because it was closer to the terminal.  (factor #2)
- It was 0600 AM; complete darkness (factor #3), and runway 27R is normally used for departures, so the approach lights and ILS were turned off (factor #4). Additionally, the runway lighting was likely on the lowest intensity (factor #5).  It is very possible that the only thing differentiating the runway from the taxiway (aside from its physical position related to the other runway) were the color of the lights, and if the runway lights were at the same dim intensity as the taxiway lights, I could see how it is very possible that things just didn't 'click' until the tires were already on the ground, especially since the crew was coming off of a 10-hour overnight long-haul (fatigue- factor #6).

There is a saying that every incident in the field of aviation is a result of the 'swiss cheese effect' where no incident is a result of any single cause.

Say you have a block of swiss cheese and you slice it up, shuffle the slices and stack them up.  In order to poke your finger straight through the block of cheese, every slice has to have a hole that just happens to line up with a hole in the next slice, and so on...  Now, obviously there's a pretty low chance that enough holes will actually line up, but shuffle the slices enough and sooner or later, the holes will line up.  In the Delta incident, 6 different holes happened to line up... if any of those factors had been different, the crew probably would have realized their mistake.

(Check out reply #61 on this thread)

Quote
Someone dropped the ball.   Does anyone have a linkable airport diagram there.
Indeed, but before we place blame, we have to know all the factors.
« Last Edit: February 13, 2010, 08:11:57 AM by Branmuffin »

Monk Xion

  • Former member
Re: Whatever runway you prefer sir... (take off from taxiway)
« Reply #17 on: February 15, 2010, 12:16:43 AM »
Wasnt there a story a couple years ago about a Continental Airlines plane landing on a taxiway at Newark? Haha this thread made me think of it.

 

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