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Author Topic: No suitable second hand aircraft and no slots at LHR  (Read 5102 times)

hunty

  • Former member
Re: No suitable second hand aircraft and no slots at LHR
« Reply #20 on: May 09, 2009, 09:18:20 PM »
Whoa, easy people, wind your necks in abit. I'm new to this and am making a suggestion. In the 'real world' you wouldn't get the likes of Magic Carpet coming into LHR and picking up passengers on another route to New York or wherever, fifth freedom. From what I read on here there are a couple of CEO's on here who have found the magic formulae and do the same every game. Stopping this sort of 'freedom' may make a more even game (and stop a foreign carrier gloating about having more slots out of LHR than me an LHR based airline as has happened to me). Just a suggestion.
As I have said before there is never a situation where there are nil slots available at LHR, take my word for it.

I'll step back for and wait for the abuse (unwarranted). I'm off to work in Amman (in aviation) and will be back on line in a couple of days.  :P

Kontio

  • Former member
Re: No suitable second hand aircraft and no slots at LHR
« Reply #21 on: May 09, 2009, 09:49:36 PM »
As I have said before there is never a situation where there are nil slots available at LHR, take my word for it.

I'll take your word for it since you work in aviation and are thus an expert.

toyotaboy95

  • Former member
Re: No suitable second hand aircraft and no slots at LHR
« Reply #22 on: May 09, 2009, 11:59:43 PM »
One last post on the matter. The unrealistic situation has arrived where there are zero slots available at LHR. Maybe for future games it would be better to block carriers from enjoying such generous fifth freedom rights through an airport (as in the real world at LHR).

Cheers

CEO HuntExpress
In real-life the situation is the same, and airlines are flying empty planes to preserve them.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/travel/news/article4340518.ece

Offline Sigma

  • Members
  • Posts: 1920
Re: No suitable second hand aircraft and no slots at LHR
« Reply #23 on: May 10, 2009, 12:32:33 AM »
In real-life the situation is the same, and airlines are flying empty planes to preserve them.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/travel/news/article4340518.ece

But... But... You don't "work in aviation".  You can't know what you're talking about!

That, my friends, is what we call "pwnage".

To sum up the article, slots at LHR are such an incredibly precious commodity (valued at some $50 million dollars each) that airlines are willing to operate empty flights at costs of $100,000 every flight, just to retain their slots so that some other airline doesn't steal them away.
« Last Edit: May 10, 2009, 12:39:03 AM by Sigma »

pharmy

  • Former member
Re: No suitable second hand aircraft and no slots at LHR
« Reply #24 on: May 10, 2009, 10:45:25 AM »
This is an article from 2007 http://business.timesonline.co.uk/tol/business/industry_sectors/transport/article1591309.ece

Slots on Heathrow’s runways are the most sought after in world aviation. The airport’s two runways operate at 98.5% capacity. The only free slots left at the airport are late at night, too late to be attractive to most airlines. Heathrow's owner BAA, was today referred by the Office of Fair Trading to the Competition Commission for an inquiry that could eventually lead to its break-up. BAA faces a separate Competition Commission review into proposed charges to airlines at its UK airports.

Slot-trading is regarded by some as illegal, but despite this there is a thriving grey market. Few deals are disclosed publicly, although BA has in the past given some details of its transactions. Its previous biggest deal was in 2003, when it bought eight pairs of slots from Swissair, the Swiss flag carrier that later collapsed in financial turmoil.

Airline executives said that the price paid by BA appeared cheap. “Paying £3.4m per pair (the normal method for valuing slots) seems a very good deal. Pairs have changed hands for £10m,” one said.


5th freedom rights are vital for fun game play, until multiple hubs are allowed. If they weren't allowed every airline based in smaller cities would be unable to expand after a couple of weeks gameplay

hunty

  • Former member
Re: No suitable second hand aircraft and no slots at LHR
« Reply #25 on: May 11, 2009, 08:15:01 PM »
Sigma - I think you'll find that airlines would only do this as a short term measure to protect historic rights. Obviously you are not going to give up a slot at a prime unless you have to.

Pharmy - Thank you, I think that vindicates my view. There are slots available at LHR (the most sought after airport in the worls) albeit at off peak times.

Sigma - Beneath contempt and not worth commenting on.

Cheers

CEO Hunt Express - Your gateway to the World (when we can get some more slots!)

Kontio

  • Former member
Re: No suitable second hand aircraft and no slots at LHR
« Reply #26 on: May 11, 2009, 08:55:56 PM »
I counted the proportion of slots in use at LHR for each day assuming a capacity of 49 slots per day:

Mo 99,3%
Tu 99,6%
We 98.3%
Th 98.8%
Fr 99.3%
Sa 93.6%
Su 97.5%

giving an overall use of 97.5% of slots which is not that far from the quoted 98.5% in real life. Obviously the figures can't really be directly compared but the point is that both in game and in real life slots at LHR are hard to come by, almost impossible if you want to fly at peak times.

I'm not really following hunty's logic here, you seem to agree that LHR in real life is practically full with the only available slots at off peak times but on the other hand you claim you could get slots there within a margin of a couple of hours?

hunty

  • Former member
Re: No suitable second hand aircraft and no slots at LHR
« Reply #27 on: May 12, 2009, 05:23:17 PM »
Kontio, sorry don't follow your logic here. If there are no slots avialable at LHR in the game scenario (and there have none for some time now) then I make that 100% Doesn't need much working out.
Ref the late slots I, probably wrongly, took the figures quoted from the article as truth. I, and everybody else, should take whatever the press write about the aviation industry with a pinch of salt and I did not vouch for their accuracy, I merely used that figure to prove a point. I still say that if I put in a one off slot request for a movement at LHR I would get something.

Kontio

  • Former member
Re: No suitable second hand aircraft and no slots at LHR
« Reply #28 on: May 12, 2009, 05:32:05 PM »
Kontio, sorry don't follow your logic here. If there are no slots avialable at LHR in the game scenario (and there have none for some time now) then I make that 100% Doesn't need much working out.

You can "make" that 200% if you like, but the real situation can be seen here:

http://www.airwaysim.com/game/Routes/Slots/EGLL/

Seems to have changed since I made the calculation, now there are literally no slots on Monday at least. But it's a changing situation, you can sometimes grab slots just like you can grab good used aircraft.

If you really have access to slot availability in real life, could you make a few queries regarding LHR? We always need to take everything the press writes with a pinch of salt. I also like salt with statements from people who claim some kind of vague insider knowledge on internet forums because they work in the business.
« Last Edit: May 12, 2009, 05:39:40 PM by Kontio »

mikeymike

  • Former member
Re: No suitable second hand aircraft and no slots at LHR
« Reply #29 on: May 12, 2009, 06:05:36 PM »
Hunty, have to just correct you here, as while new slots are extremely rare and difficult to get (as real life)
slots have become available even since this thread was started (quite a few actually) which we at UBA have duly snapped up.


Mike - CEO of United British Airways. . . the largest carrier out of LHR ( with more than enough slots)
« Last Edit: May 12, 2009, 06:08:06 PM by mikeymike »

pharmy

  • Former member
Re: No suitable second hand aircraft and no slots at LHR
« Reply #30 on: May 12, 2009, 06:20:48 PM »
98% is widely quoted and is quite true, this allows almost 500,000 movements a year which is fantastic for a 2 runway 6am-1100pm airport. There are a few free slots, these are bought by BAA from the airlines and then are sold. Lufthansa bought BMI principally for its Heathrow slots (BMI controls 11% of them and valued them at 770 million GBP), so expect Lufthansa to  now compete with BA and Virgin on the LHR-JFK route. There is simply no other way to get into Heathrow, just search on google for buy heathrow slots and you will get 100,000 results. Even if an airline with Heathrow slots goes bankrupt, the slots would be a prized asset to be auctioned off.

And now that the EU did away with the 80% use it or lose it slot rule, even fewer slots will be available
http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/standard-business/article-23661922-details/Rule+change+by+Brussels+on+slots+puts+heat+on+BAA/article.do

A quote from an investment banker regarding the BMI buy : ``The value in BMI is in the Heathrow slots,'' James wrote in a note to investors today. ``We expect Lufthansa to sell the business, keep the slots and use the new A380s on routes to the U.S.''


Online Sami

  • Administrator
  • Members
  • Posts: 14535
    • AirwaySim - Are you the next Richard Branson?
Re: No suitable second hand aircraft and no slots at LHR
« Reply #31 on: May 12, 2009, 06:40:31 PM »
hey what's the true hourly capacity at LHR today?  Just checking if the game stats are correct.

Offline swiftus27

  • Members
  • Posts: 4395
Re: No suitable second hand aircraft and no slots at LHR
« Reply #32 on: May 12, 2009, 06:41:42 PM »
I am still reading this as a complete Boo Hoo thread.

1.  You started at an advantageous airport with tons of demand
2.  Many other airlines also wanted this comparative advantage and started there as well
3.  The many airlines based in Heathrow plus all the other airlines in this game have filled up all the slots.

Again, quit crying.  If you pick JFK, Heathrow, Gatwick, Chicago, Atlanta, Tokyo..... expect tons of competition.   You cant have every advantage.

What do you want to have happen?  Give Heathrow more slots so you can do even better?  Is that fair?  

Focus on buying planes.  Focus on being an aircraft broker.  

This is exactly why the 744D was invented and used in Japan.  The number of slots were limited but demand was greater than what small planes could support.  They HAD to use these large planes. 

pharmy

  • Former member
Re: No suitable second hand aircraft and no slots at LHR
« Reply #33 on: May 12, 2009, 07:32:13 PM »

I think its 87-90 (40 to 45 per runway) right now with the theoretical maximum being 110. The difference between the two can be attributed to the large number of heavies operating there (vortex/wake turbulence gap)

According to Fraport- AMS/CDG has 90 movements per hour but are planning an expansion to 120, FRA has 83 at peak times


pharmy

  • Former member

hunty

  • Former member
Re: No suitable second hand aircraft and no slots at LHR
« Reply #35 on: May 13, 2009, 09:46:47 PM »
Swiftus, re-read my earlier comment 'wind your neck in'. You will see that I said near the beginning that I was new to this and was merely making a suggestion.
I joined this website and game to have some fun not to be lectured by anyone. I'm pleased there are now some slots and I'm pleased for you mikeymike that you feel so smug for your position, well done. Unfortunately I have only been able to check a couple of times over the last few days so have missed out on slots, c'est la vie.
It's a shame people can't be a bit more welcoming to newbies on this site.

Cheers

Kontio - What is your problem? Stick to your game plan and I'll stick to mine, thanks for your comments (maybe you should spend a little less time reading forums making crass comments and spend more time in the real world, make the most of the daylight you have up there.) I only know 1 Finnish word ' runkery' spelling is wrong but you'll get the drift. Lol ;)
« Last Edit: May 13, 2009, 09:54:03 PM by hunty »

Kontio

  • Former member
Re: No suitable second hand aircraft and no slots at LHR
« Reply #36 on: May 14, 2009, 06:17:36 AM »
Kontio - What is your problem? Stick to your game plan and I'll stick to mine, thanks for your comments (maybe you should spend a little less time reading forums making crass comments and spend more time in the real world, make the most of the daylight you have up there.) I only know 1 Finnish word ' runkery' spelling is wrong but you'll get the drift. Lol ;)

I am so sorry if I have offended you. If you make comments about people just having to take you word because you claim to be an expert, don't expect a welcoming attitude. I felt you were doing the lecturing. My reasons for spending too much time on the internet and not much time in the real world are really none of your business, but thank you for your concern. I'm not sure about which Finnish word you are referring to, the only one that comes to mind is so rude that you can't possibly mean that.

hunty

  • Former member
Re: No suitable second hand aircraft and no slots at LHR
« Reply #37 on: May 14, 2009, 05:22:26 PM »
Ok, last words from me on the subject. Firstly I have never lectured anyone nor claimed to be an expert. I can't be bothered to read the whole thread but from memory, I made a suggestion and was picked up on it, I replied that I worked in aviation (never that I was an expert nor lecturing the person) indicating that I did know a bit about what I was talking about. I reiterate I have never claimed to be an expert merely that I work in the industry.
As I have repeatedly said, I am new to the game and just wanted to make a suggestion. I am surprised at the un-friendly nature of a lot of people on here. To be honest I'm not enjoying the game due to peoples attitude and that is a shame as the idea and challenge is good.
Kontio - no offence meant, whatever it means it was said tongue in cheek

 

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