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Author Topic: Used aircraft market  (Read 12776 times)

Offline highways1

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Re: Used aircraft market
« Reply #100 on: May 02, 2009, 11:44:53 PM »
I understand the new system Sami has in place even though it's frustrating at times. Think about it, planes don't fall from the sky into our laps so it is unrealistic to generate them out of the blue. I do think a small increase in the number of planes generated at the beginning of the game would help but only a little bit. There are two problems right now, both of which have been discussed thoroughly. The new aircraft production system, which would make it much more fair and realistic in obtaining new planes, as most real-world airlines don't wait 4-6 years on common aircraft. The other thing is that until the user-generated market picks up it is going to be slow going. I think that this market won't be that great anyway because a lot of players have previous experience and won't go bankrupt as much as in the first set of games.

charger27

  • Former member
Re: Used aircraft market
« Reply #101 on: May 04, 2009, 07:35:35 AM »
I understand the new system Sami has in place even though it's frustrating at times. Think about it, planes don't fall from the sky into our laps so it is unrealistic to generate them out of the blue. I do think a small increase in the number of planes generated at the beginning of the game would help but only a little bit. There are two problems right now, both of which have been discussed thoroughly. The new aircraft production system, which would make it much more fair and realistic in obtaining new planes, as most real-world airlines don't wait 4-6 years on common aircraft. The other thing is that until the user-generated market picks up it is going to be slow going. I think that this market won't be that great anyway because a lot of players have previous experience and won't go bankrupt as much as in the first set of games.
Well I had to restart... I had to take some of the garbage planes to attempt to get to a decent size and generate enough revenue to order planes... which I have been unable to do since the restart.
Well, the garbage planes pulled me under... this after sitting for about half a year with my planes I had, with no opportunity to buy more... and not clearing enough with the small fleet to place orders for new leased planes.
Just a note - don't use the Ilyushin 62... what a joke - On Phoenix-Seattle-Boston-Phoenix run at 98% pax = $2,600.00... and the plane was only 5 years old.
And naturally, I bit the bullet and took out a big loan and bought 3 of these lumps of Russian crap.

2 full pages of absolute junk.
I keep hearing how Sami can't just generate decent planes.... why not? he's had no trouble filling a two page roster with old and useless aircraft!
So, then I restart and take out my max loan... but the loan doesn't show in my cash - just on the bank sheet! ENOUGH is ENOUGH.

At this point I have cashed out... don't know if I will try again or not.
I want to play this game to relax and enjoy... not deal with a mountain of frustration.
In the meantime I am going to look around at other sims... if I find a good one I will let you know.

Offline Dasha

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Re: Used aircraft market
« Reply #102 on: May 04, 2009, 10:39:59 AM »

Just a note - don't use the Ilyushin 62... what a joke - On Phoenix-Seattle-Boston-Phoenix run at 98% pax = $2,600.00... and the plane was only 5 years old.
And naturally, I bit the bullet and took out a big loan and bought 3 of these lumps of Russian crap.


Oi!

We Russians hardly build any crap. The thing is that most airlines using Russian planes are heavily subsidized/owned by the government which makes it profitable flying them.
(Sorry for the off topic but I just had to respond :P )
The people who cast the votes decide nothing. The people who count the votes, decide everything

Kontio

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Re: Used aircraft market
« Reply #103 on: May 04, 2009, 10:53:25 AM »
We Russians hardly build any crap. The thing is that most airlines using Russian planes are heavily subsidized/owned by the government which makes it profitable flying them.

Didn't that sentence just define what a crap commercial airplane is? (Not being profitable without subsidies.) And maybe modern Russian planes are good, don't really know a lot about them. And you have always had kick-ass military planes.

Not going to start a flame-war about this, but national pride is one thing and logical fallacies are another.
« Last Edit: May 04, 2009, 10:56:21 AM by Kontio »

Offline Unbornio

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Re: Used aircraft market
« Reply #104 on: May 04, 2009, 11:26:40 AM »
I'm waiting for these problems to be fixed before I spend my free credits from beta.  ;D
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Offline Sami

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Re: Used aircraft market
« Reply #105 on: May 04, 2009, 12:12:10 PM »
Well I've at least played in the Jet Age #2 without any problems of getting the planes I want. Running a fleet of SE210 Caravelle's and just ordered DC-9s wth 10 month wait time.

But I believe there is no more discussion needed on this topic as this seems to go into the direction of open 'crying' only. The new aircraft order system is being worked on which is closely tied to this changed used a/c market, and also some tuning to the used market is planned (in terms of how many planes / model are generated to be more specific). Both of them are to make the game more realistic, including with updates like a/c MSN numbers and operator history.

As already said dozens of times, aircaft will not simply pop to the world in the middle of the game, and that will not change. It seems to be hard to understand that if the world had let's say 100 DC-10's when it started and they are released to the market in a certain rate and after 5 years every DC-10 is bought, they do not appear at the market anymore, unless some terminates the lease, goes bust or similar. The previous model where planes just popped in out of nowhere was simply not good and does not even remotely represent a normal aircraft market so that needed a change.

Branmuffin

  • Former member
Re: Used aircraft market
« Reply #106 on: May 05, 2009, 04:32:57 PM »
Well I've at least played in the Jet Age #2 without any problems of getting the planes I want. Running a fleet of SE210 Caravelle's and just ordered DC-9s wth 10 month wait time.

That's probably because Jet Age #2 only has 161 people in it.. additionally, I would contend that the experienced AWS players are probably all in Air Boom and Jet Age #1.  Comparing Air Boom to Jet Age #2 is like comparing apples to oranges...

Quote
As already said dozens of times, aircaft will not simply pop to the world in the middle of the game, and that will not change.

I don't mean to be offensive or rude because you are an awesome developer/admin who actually interacts with the community (;D), but I think you might be misunderstanding the complaints that people are making.  People are not complaining about the realistic aspect of having a definite, fixed number of used planes generated at the start of the game.  I, for one, am very glad that the generation system works this way.  The problem (at least in Air Travel Boom) is that there were not enough airplanes generated to begin with for the number of players in the game.  Additionally, all of the experienced airlines in ATB snapped up the decent planes as soon as they were listed on the market, because the date and time that used planes were put on the market was so predictable (every sunday at 12:10).  The current system (daily releases at 11:45) is a bit better, but ideally, the best solution would be to have brokers place used aircraft on the market at random times and days throughout the game week.

Now as you said,
Quote
tuning to the used market is planned (in terms of how many planes / model are generated to be more specific).
should help out immensely, but I do believe that one key solution is to have brokers list the aircraft on the used market at random, unpredictable intervals.
« Last Edit: May 05, 2009, 04:36:34 PM by Branmuffin »

charger27

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Re: Used aircraft market
« Reply #107 on: May 05, 2009, 06:19:03 PM »
That's probably because Jet Age #2 only has 161 people in it.. additionally, I would contend that the experienced AWS players are probably all in Air Boom and Jet Age #1.  Comparing Air Boom to Jet Age #2 is like comparing apples to oranges...
I don't mean to be offensive or rude because you are an awesome developer/admin who actually interacts with the community (;D), but I think you might be misunderstanding the complaints that people are making.  People are not complaining about the realistic aspect of having a definite, fixed number of used planes generated at the start of the game.  I, for one, am very glad that the generation system works this way.  The problem (at least in Air Travel Boom) is that there were not enough airplanes generated to begin with for the number of players in the game.  Additionally, all of the experienced airlines in ATB snapped up the decent planes as soon as they were listed on the market, because the date and time that used planes were put on the market was so predictable (every sunday at 12:10).  The current system (daily releases at 11:45) is a bit better, but ideally, the best solution would be to have brokers place used aircraft on the market at random times and days throughout the game week.
Now as you said, should help out immensely, but I do believe that one key solution is to have brokers list the aircraft on the used market at random, unpredictable intervals.
Very well said.

At the actual start of Air Travel Boom... it wasn't as bad, because people were filtering in gradually.
The first people to sign up and pay, got first crack at the planes... and rightfully so!

On the restart... everyone was in place and ready to pounce all at once.
Compounding this problem was those in Europe and eastern North America got a big head start on the rest with the surprise restart... those in the West were handicapped with a lack of aircraft availability right from the minute they found out about the restart.

A couple of things I still haven't heard a legitimate answer on:
1. what is going on with the loans system occasionally not paying out the cash?
I see in other threads where many have had this problem.

2. on the restart "slow day" 1 , how is it that with my cash plus max unsecured loan available I was $375,000.00 short of leasing a 767-200ER, yet others were able to lease these very same aircraft?
I have posted this question in a couple different threads since this occurred - yet have never received a satisfactory answer on this.

As I mentioned last game as well... 375 people are too many for these game worlds.
I know the developers figure they can cram 500 into these scenarios... but the route rates are already saturated with 375.
What the developers do not seem to understand - in the real world, airlines would not irresponsibly undercut the lane prices where nobody can be profitable... why would you with real money on the line?
Temporary price wars here and there maybe... but even they are within reason, and for very brief periods of time.

Here - clowns regularly jump in and run the prices into the ground on popular routes.
Maybe they only last for a short time... but they ruin good runs for 6 months, a year, 2 years - however long they last.

Also - here airlines can grow substantially faster than in real life... so airports and routes become more crowded much quicker.

Offline highways1

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Re: Used aircraft market
« Reply #108 on: May 05, 2009, 06:28:56 PM »
To answer your question about the 767-200ER's, not all of them are priced the same depending on the configuration and range. My guess is that the cheapest ones went first and you were a little short in being able to buy a more expensive one.

charger27

  • Former member
Re: Used aircraft market
« Reply #109 on: May 05, 2009, 06:51:52 PM »
To answer your question about the 767-200ER's, not all of them are priced the same depending on the configuration and range. My guess is that the cheapest ones went first and you were a little short in being able to buy a more expensive one.
Right... and that is the answer that Sami gave.

But I am talking SPECIFICALLY about the last two 767-200ER's that were on the list.
One was $375,000.00 above my range, the other was about $520,000.00 beyond what I could afford.
Yet - both were leased and gone BEFORE the end of the "slow day"... and prior to the game starting!

I am not the only one who questioned this when it happened.

Here is the big flaw that I see with ATB.
The game was started in a modern era... yet the same plane roster was used from previous games that started far earlier in history.
So right away, we were saddled with pages of planes that were already outdated on day 1.

charger27

  • Former member
Re: Used aircraft market
« Reply #110 on: May 05, 2009, 07:28:07 PM »
I want to slag the Russian aviation industry for a minute.
Moscow certainly does NOT know how to build aircraft.

Take your pick... Ilyushin, Tupolev, Yakovlev - and whatever other ev's that are out there:
their fuel burn/hour and flightcrew numbers vs. pax/payload and range are all PATHETIC.

Luckily Russia produces their own fuel, because that's the only way they can afford to keep these cast iron blowtorches in the air!
That is, when they stay in the air.  ;)

Maybe Russia should invest in a bunch of VC-10 Boeing-MD tanker conversions (flying gas stations) to increase their range.
I am presuming their later aircraft were at least a little better designed and more economical.
I mean... why include so many of these planes? They are all extremely "revenue-resistant"!
« Last Edit: May 05, 2009, 07:33:09 PM by charger27 »

Offline Sami

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Re: Used aircraft market
« Reply #111 on: May 06, 2009, 01:56:21 AM »
The game was started in a modern era... yet the same plane roster was used from previous games that started far earlier in history.

No it wasn't.

The system generates 4-24y aircraft to the market at the start point.

Offline Dasha

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Re: Used aircraft market
« Reply #112 on: May 06, 2009, 08:45:54 AM »
I want to slag the Russian aviation industry for a minute.
Moscow certainly does NOT know how to build aircraft.

Take your pick... Ilyushin, Tupolev, Yakovlev - and whatever other ev's that are out there:
their fuel burn/hour and flightcrew numbers vs. pax/payload and range are all PATHETIC.

Luckily Russia produces their own fuel, because that's the only way they can afford to keep these cast iron blowtorches in the air!
That is, when they stay in the air.  ;)

Maybe Russia should invest in a bunch of VC-10 Boeing-MD tanker conversions (flying gas stations) to increase their range.
I am presuming their later aircraft were at least a little better designed and more economical.
I mean... why include so many of these planes? They are all extremely "revenue-resistant"!


You are right about the passenger and range things and maybe even about the fuel consumption of the planes. But recently Russian builders have gone Western. For example, one can order an Il-96 with P&W engines and an updated cockpit reducing pilots to only 3 compared to the 5 needed in the 86. And then there is the new Sukhoi Superjet which is basically compareable with any other short range plane.

In game the russian build planes aren't working simply because of the costs. In real, A russian build plane is cheaper to fly in Russia than a boeing since the import taxes on the Yanks are insane. Plus, since most Russian airlines are at least for a bit state owned and Aeroflot still fully state owned, the government forces them to fly with the Tupolevs and Ilyushin's simply to keep the Russian plane manufacturors up. Also, Russia produces more gas than oil. It's not like Emirates who are said to get their fuel for free.

Finally, I don't think this conversation should be in this topic but in a new one :)
The people who cast the votes decide nothing. The people who count the votes, decide everything

sambessey

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Re: Used aircraft market
« Reply #113 on: May 06, 2009, 08:55:05 AM »
Yes, airlines do grow much faster than real- life, but they have to- seeing as we all start from nothing in 1995.

There are too FEW airlines in the game, if anything, in real life, there are far more than 350 airlines in the sky (So you don't end up with the mega airlines you do here). The problem is that there is nothing to stop people cutting route prices rediculously AND it is too easy to expand... What stops British Airways (or any other airline with a decent cash reserve), or even a state owned airline like Singapore Airlines from going out and blowing 200M on leasing as many 777s or whatever as possible and swamping the market? The fact it is impossible to expand that quickly for one thing, the fact the shareholders would see it as reckless behaviour and probably revolt against the board.

And yes, there are too few aircraft in the game world, but the answer is to make it harder to expand, not impossible due to lack of planes.

Until this problem is fixed, the game will continue to be unrealistic, and I think it is balanced about as well as it can be at the moment.

charger27

  • Former member
Re: Used aircraft market
« Reply #114 on: May 06, 2009, 03:36:48 PM »
You are right about the passenger and range things and maybe even about the fuel consumption of the planes. But recently Russian builders have gone Western. For example, one can order an Il-96 with P&W engines and an updated cockpit reducing pilots to only 3 compared to the 5 needed in the 86. And then there is the new Sukhoi Superjet which is basically compareable with any other short range plane.
In game the russian build planes aren't working simply because of the costs. In real, A russian build plane is cheaper to fly in Russia than a boeing since the import taxes on the Yanks are insane. Plus, since most Russian airlines are at least for a bit state owned and Aeroflot still fully state owned, the government forces them to fly with the Tupolevs and Ilyushin's simply to keep the Russian plane manufacturors up. Also, Russia produces more gas than oil. It's not like Emirates who are said to get their fuel for free.
Finally, I don't think this conversation should be in this topic but in a new one :)
I was just having a little fun here.
But thanks for the info - it is always good to learn something new.

Offline Sigma

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Re: Used aircraft market
« Reply #115 on: May 06, 2009, 05:25:46 PM »
Yes, airlines do grow much faster than real- life, but they have to- seeing as we all start from nothing in 1995.

There are too FEW airlines in the game, if anything, in real life, there are far more than 350 airlines in the sky (So you don't end up with the mega airlines you do here). The problem is that there is nothing to stop people cutting route prices rediculously AND it is too easy to expand... What stops British Airways (or any other airline with a decent cash reserve), or even a state owned airline like Singapore Airlines from going out and blowing 200M on leasing as many 777s or whatever as possible and swamping the market? The fact it is impossible to expand that quickly for one thing, the fact the shareholders would see it as reckless behaviour and probably revolt against the board.

And yes, there are too few aircraft in the game world, but the answer is to make it harder to expand, not impossible due to lack of planes.

Until this problem is fixed, the game will continue to be unrealistic, and I think it is balanced about as well as it can be at the moment.

The first and foremost reason is that it's simply illegal in most industrialized worlds.

Air travel across the globe is highly-regulated.  You can't open a route without the permission of countless government groups at all levels.  If it's anti-competitive, it's simply not going to happen.  You can't sell tickets for signficantly below cost purely to kill a competitor because you can be sued for being anti-competitive.  You might get away with charging an absurdly low price for a few months as a marketing ploy, but do it for too long and you'll find yourself in a federal court for anti-competitive acts. 

You can't open three times the routes someplace as needed because the government isn't likely to let you.  Nor is the board of the airport itself going to give you the slots to do that.  And perhaps the biggest stumbling block will be the Unions because, when you kill the competition, the Unions aren't going to allow you to simply reduce your flights back down -- not without expensive concessions to the workerrs you'll be laying off with your reduced capacity.

Yullover

  • Former member
Re: Used aircraft market
« Reply #116 on: May 07, 2009, 05:41:31 PM »
The used market, is now more boring then ever... less plane... one appear once a time...

I'm waiting now from 4 hours, refreship every 5 minutes, finally one ATR appear.. click on it... another take it fraction of second before...

Worst worst then ever... for sure, me to i will not spend more money on this game has i not enjoying it for the moment !!!
« Last Edit: May 07, 2009, 05:51:28 PM by Yullover »

castelino009

  • Former member
Re: Used aircraft market
« Reply #117 on: May 07, 2009, 10:32:30 PM »
Dasha,

love ur posts :) GO DASHA ;D

I love IL 11-96 but they are real gas guzzlers more worse than 4 fan dryers on A340(as they say).

VJC

Offline Dasha

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Re: Used aircraft market
« Reply #118 on: May 08, 2009, 05:56:08 AM »
Haha but at least the Il96's Solovievs look better than the hair dryers on the A340
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Offline Sami

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Re: Used aircraft market
« Reply #119 on: May 08, 2009, 08:16:48 AM »


For some reason the supply of used aircraft from brokers seems to be very limited at the moment in all three games I believe. I will look to this later tonight..

 

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