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Author Topic: Codeshare  (Read 2139 times)

Offline Name_Omitted

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Codeshare
« on: August 03, 2008, 06:35:17 PM »
Are there any plans for codeshare tickets, or to be able to rent blocks of seats on other airlines?

I apologize if this has been covered, I did a search and found nothing.

Offline Sami

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Re: Codeshare
« Reply #1 on: August 03, 2008, 06:41:24 PM »
No plans for that yet..

Klcosta

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Re: Codeshare
« Reply #2 on: February 01, 2010, 02:44:07 AM »
this should be a must

mikk_13

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Re: Codeshare
« Reply #3 on: February 01, 2010, 10:43:53 AM »
I agree!

I think this should be introduced and the increase in load factor due to alliance scraped.

There are a couple of ways code shares work.

I believe one way is they pool all their income from a certain route together and then they split the income depending on the capacity their airline has on the route. This means it does not matter who you fly with as some money will go to both airlines operating the code share.

The other way is that an airline allocates a certain number of seats to the codeshare partner, eg. 10-20%. Then the airline can sell their allocation of seats as if it is there airline.

I think there should be a choice within the alliance to choose which system you use.

What would make it even better is a way to set up code share routes going from lets say sydney to east midlands in the uk. So lets say the demand for tickets is 50 seats for syd to east midlands, the customs could fly your airline from syd to heathrow then an alliance member from  heathrow to east midlands.

I think this should be introduced soonish since the alliance does not really make a big difference in the game. I think it is something that is definitely missing.

Offline Name_Omitted

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Re: Codeshare
« Reply #4 on: February 02, 2010, 02:38:38 AM »
You know, you may have solved the mammoth hub problem here.

If you allow an airline to lease as many seats as they want to another airline, that could be the growth engine for the other airline who is bored with not being able to serve more than their hub city.

Airline A is huge out of LAX.  Airline B has some seats from MSP to SEA.  Airline A leases a block of seats from airline B between MSP and SEA.  Airline A now has a "flight" from MSP to SEA without squeezing another player out by building a second hub.

All of a sudden, secondary airlines have a reason to expand, offering seats to primary airlines.  This could create a commuter system, an expanded route network, and keeps more people in the game paying credits.

ICEcoldair881

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Re: Codeshare
« Reply #5 on: February 02, 2010, 03:27:49 AM »
OMG! you're so smart! :'( I wish I thought of that...... ::) I think that would be great, but the only thing is that if you buy from other airlines, there's a chance that you might not get the opposite (airlines buying seats from you). and you might not have enough money to do that. airlines that are struggling to make ends meet couldn't do that as they wouldn't have enough to buy them. :P

Online schro

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Re: Codeshare
« Reply #6 on: February 02, 2010, 03:56:20 AM »
But isn't the point of the game to create a business environment where you can chose to drive a competitor under so you can serve his/her capacity? The way that the current demand system works is soley on a point to point basis.  The hypothetical passenger would simply purchase tickets to make all of the necessary connections on a segment by segment basis. The ability to model this programatically in a way that enhances game play would be a sheer nightmare for Sami, especially when there are so many other features/initiatives that need to be addressed before I think this should be considered.


Offline Name_Omitted

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Re: Codeshare
« Reply #7 on: February 02, 2010, 04:09:37 AM »
I don't know what this will do to Sami's coding, but here goes.

Every city pair has a daily demand.  I don't know how it's coded, but it is.  There are, for instance, 114 people who want to travel between Minneapolis, MN, and Nome Alaska every day.  Who knew?

Now, finding an aircraft that could economically provide 114 seats over 2,000 miles is difficult.  However, if I could charter 50 seats to Nome a day on Alaska Territorial Airlines, and 50 seats to Kodiak (there is demand for 140 a day between MSP and ADQ), then fly my 200 pax 757 from MSP to ANC, blocking 100 seats to book flights from MSP to ADQ and OME, I could expand my airline to a lot more places in the world before growing bored with having only one hub city.  In game terms, I only have 100 seats available to go to Anchorage, I have 50 seats going to Nome and 50 to Kodiak.  I am paying Alaska Territorial Airlines a block for the seats I am using on their aircraft.

In the process, this creates a niche for people who want to play in less populated parts of the world.  Alaska Territorial Air (or Russian Far East Air, or South American Air, or whatever) suddenly has a very lucrative side job providing an economic incentive to try and corner odd parts of the globe, not just the big airports.

Offline Name_Omitted

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Re: Codeshare
« Reply #8 on: February 02, 2010, 04:13:52 AM »
But isn't the point of the game to create a business environment where you can chose to drive a competitor under so you can serve his/her capacity?

Absolutely!  This allows you to do that in other markets, while creating a reliability on other players that prevents complete domination by the airlines that started out in LHR, DXB or NRT, which is the challenge with allowing second cities.

The game balance issue is that you want competition, but you don't want to make it imposable for new people to pay credits and play.  I am imagining a system that would create a niece market for people whenever they join.

Offline TommyC81

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Re: Codeshare
« Reply #9 on: February 02, 2010, 09:07:11 AM »
I can't see how codesharing will add any benefit until there is connecting passengers. Why would anyone just let you have 50 seats of rev generating passengers when they could cash more themselves. The only way this would make sense would be if you had so many connecting passengers that you need extra capacity, which another airline can supply as they don't have the connecting passenger base (only direct flying passengers) to fill their planes completely. Just my thoughts.

mikk_13

  • Former member
Re: Codeshare
« Reply #10 on: February 02, 2010, 10:23:17 AM »
Yeah, I think you need to have connecting passengers for the code share to really work.

The benefit of having a code share alliance for both airlines would be that they would boost demand of their entire network.

lets use the example of flying from LAX to Berlin Tegal.

My airline flys a 747 for the first leg from LAX to EGLL. The demand is 300 people. The demand from my airline from lax to Berlin is 50.

So i set up a code share agreement with an alliance airline at EGLL. We code share 50 seats on his heathrow to Berlin flight, and this becomes one of my flights.

So then i set up an connection route from lax to berlin, my demand on the lax to egll route is now 350. and then 50 seats go to the code share for the second leg.

If i don't fly enough capacity on the first leg, well then my second leg will not get the customers. If my price for the lax to berlin flight is too high well then my first leg might be ok but my second leg will suffer.

I think the problem will be to manage all the flights. I think you would have to set them up one at a time sort of thing. I think coding would be difficult but the benefit of the game would be great.

Offline Name_Omitted

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Re: Codeshare
« Reply #11 on: February 02, 2010, 03:40:50 PM »
What I am suggesting is that instead of figuring out connecting passengers, you essentially create separate "flights" using seats on someone ease's airline (obviously rented) for the final leg.  Using my previous example, I would have a flight from Minneapolis to Nome via Anchorage, without having the computer have to model transfer passengers.  From the computer's perspective, it would essentially be a single flight (although there would probably have to be some sort of governor on demand, making demand somewhat less than that of a direct flight)

Offline Gaius Marius

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Re: Codeshare
« Reply #12 on: February 03, 2010, 01:09:23 AM »
I really like this thread.  It solves two big issues (Alliance membership advantage and passenger connections).

GM
"Flying is learning how to throw yourself at the ground and miss"

Offline LemonButt

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Codeshare Scheme
« Reply #13 on: July 31, 2011, 01:41:46 AM »
I've done some pretty extensive research on real life airlines and took the current systems into consideration to come up with this.  I know we've all complained about the viability of smaller/regional planes in the game and running an airline with only small aircraft.  Here it is--any comments are appreciated :)  BTW here is the original codeshare thread (thought this was worth it's own thread): http://www.airwaysim.com/forum/index.php/topic,719.0.html

1.  Ability to create alliances upon gameworld start (might be moot considering 50 year gameworlds).  The reason for this being codesharing would be alliance based.

2.  Alliances comprised of a maximum of 25 "normal" airlines and a maximum of 5 codeshare airlines.  Codeshare airlines would be limited to 1 per continent (chosen at codeshare airline creation) per alliance and accepted to an alliance upon airline creation.  If the alliance were to fold, the airline is put into bankruptcy and must be restarted as a regular airline or a codeshare airline with another alliance.  This means a player must be trustworthy and further builds upon the community building aspect of alliances.

3.  Codeshare airlines would be restricted to only being able to lease/buy aircraft classified as small or medium.

4.  Codeshare airlines can originate flights from any alliance member's base on their continent.  If a base is closed, all flights from that base are automatically closed.

5.  Codeshare airlines have zero marketing costs and take on a CI equal to an alliance's rating.

6.  Staff/headcount costs for codeshare airlines would be cut approximately in half.  Codeshare airlines would utilize the staff resources of their alliance members already at bases.  Some departments would be eliminated completely (such as ground handling).

*SkyWest has a fleet of 294 small/medium aircraft and just over 11,000 employees--they have ~38 employees per aircraft with 10 codeshare hubs and 163 destinations.
*My DOTM2 airline has a fleet of 131 medium aircraft (single fleet type of BAC 1-11) with 17014 employees and 4 bases--I have 130 employees per aircraft.
*The industry average across all airlines is ~50 employees per aircraft.

You can see the large discrepancy in employees per aircraft.  SkyWest has their people spread out across 10 hubs with double the fleet size of my DOTM2 airline and still manage to have 1/3 the employees on a per aircraft basis.  Reducing staff costs helps make smaller planes viable.

7.  Codeshare airlines would not have to pay the upto 1% alliance fee.  Instead, they will be required to pay 5% of revenues (assuming ~10% profit margin, this would be ~50% of profits) to an alliance codeshare profit-sharing pool.  The profit sharing pool is distributed to alliance members based on ASM flown from their base airports.  This means if an airline flies 1000nm 1x daily from Player A's base for $1,000,000 in revenue and flies 1000nm 1x daily from Player B's base for $1,000 in revenue, both players would get an equal amount assuming equal ASM (1,001,000 * 0.05 / 2 = $25,025).  The 5% would be a direct cost on the balance sheet and paid to the alliance codeshare profit-sharing pool every day.  Codeshare profit-sharing payments to alliance members would be paid weekly to smooth out day-to-day variations. 

8.  Codeshare flights are subject to the frequency rules in place.  If an alliance member is flying ORD-ATL leaving at 8:00am, a codeshare cannot fly at 8:00am with a net increase in frequency--it must be an hour apart or whatever the rules for that route are in order to maintain fair competition (it is a codeshare afterall).

9.  Adjust lease costs and landing fees.  Current profit margin potential leads to huge warchests of cash.  I currently have 131 BAC 1-11 in DOTM2 and I've been able to purchase 47 of them.  The net benefit of purchasing 47 aircraft has been a $2.3 million/week savings on lease costs, which goes directly to the bottom line.  Mind you this is only ~7 years into the sim.  I don't think a real life airline going from 0 aircraft to 130+ in a 7 year span would be able to retain earnings at this rate.  My modest airline flying 95Y 4C config with US domestic routes has seen an annualized company value growth rate of 100%, or roughly 10x the return of most any company in any given year.  Airlines with heavier CF demand are even more explosive--I know Curse, only 7 years into DOTM2, has over $3 billion in cash.  I believe a fix to this would be decreasing leasing costs and increasing landing fees.  The reason for this being landing fees are inescapable.  I currently net $2.3 million/week ($120 million/year) due to the fact I own 47 aircraft.  If lease costs were reduced and landing fees increased, the bottom line increase may only be $500k or $1 million/week, slowing growth substantially.  Lowering lease costs means initial starting money can be reduced as well (perhaps 100% loaned like most real businesses experience starting out?).


Pros:

1. The relevance of alliances is significantly increased and has a much larger affect on gameplay.
2. Smaller aircraft/airlines are finally viable (just like in IRL).
3. Codesharing becomes a reality through profit-sharing pool and creating synergies with alliance members' labor force.
4. Codeshare airlines should always be able to grow considering airline base system creating new opportunities.
5. Rewards alliance cooperation and helps pad the balance sheets of airlines so that they get a piece of the pie without seeing codeshare routes as "missed opportunities".
6. System can be implemented without completely rebuilding the game engine (I think it should function as an "addon" to the existing code).

Cons:

1. Slots will likely have to be adjusted slightly.  Small planes + high frequency flights = slot hogging.

We all know codesharing is going to happen one day (hopefully sooner than later) and this system I outlined likely won't be implemented as it stands, but hopefully I had some good ideas in there that will enhance the gameplay :)

Offline Maarten Otto

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Re: Codeshare Scheme
« Reply #14 on: July 31, 2011, 08:11:28 AM »
Slot hogging won't be the point. The player has to select a "game mode" and is not even able to get larger AC then 50 seaters. In the end no one will base at the top 30 airports as slot prices will sky rocket and make it not so attractive to base there.

ICEcoldair881

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Re: Codeshare
« Reply #15 on: August 03, 2011, 07:12:51 AM »
I think codesharing should be implemented with the use of connecting passengers (flights that fly an A-B-C-B-A route can pick up passengers at A going to both B and C, and from B to C) and possibly even a FF program, whereby the system makes a population demand and uses one person in that population and creates a route demand outline on where he/she may want to go, and uses the FF program (e.g. he would pay for the first two flights and get a third free, the third flight adding 1pt of CI and RI), where he can fly from city X(connecting passengers feature) to city Y on airline B, airline B codesharing with airline A who will get the passenger to city X, using his FF points collected from airline A.

Granted, that's a *LOT* of work, but in the end..boy oh boy will it be sweet to see that. 3 features implemented and used in a single A-B-C flight - now that would be cool.

Who here agrees?

Cheer,
ICEcold

Offline JumboShrimp

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Re: Codeshare
« Reply #16 on: August 03, 2011, 02:10:33 PM »
I think codesharing should be implemented with the use of connecting passengers (flights that fly an A-B-C-B-A route can pick up passengers at A going to both B and C, and from B to C) and possibly even a FF program, whereby the system makes a population demand and uses one person in that population and creates a route demand outline on where he/she may want to go, and uses the FF program (e.g. he would pay for the first two flights and get a third free, the third flight adding 1pt of CI and RI), where he can fly from city X(connecting passengers feature) to city Y on airline B, airline B codesharing with airline A who will get the passenger to city X, using his FF points collected from airline A.

Granted, that's a *LOT* of work, but in the end..boy oh boy will it be sweet to see that. 3 features implemented and used in a single A-B-C flight - now that would be cool.

Who here agrees?

Cheer,
ICEcold

Well, yes.  Any kind of code sharing would only make sense when passenger connectivity is implemented.  And once passenger connectivity is implemented, some kind of code sharing can built on top of that.

As is, I don't have a code-sharing with myself, meaning if I fly from ORD-SEA and ORD-BOS, my own passengers can't fly SEA-ORD-BOS.  So thinking about codesharing between airlines before passenger connectivity is implemented just makes no sense.

And as far as passenger connectivity, it is not exactly dependent on A-B-C-B-A routes. These are separate issues.  Flying B-A with one aircraft and B-C with another creates and A-B-C-B-A route, except the base is B, not A.

Offline BobTheCactus

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Re: Codeshare
« Reply #17 on: February 18, 2012, 02:37:29 PM »
Bumping this, because I think it is something substantial that sami can code relatively quickly..

The way I envision codesharing is that you would basically rent part of the plane:

Lets say I was the owner of airline A based at BOS. I can codeshare on any flight to/from BOS, on any airline.

Lets say airline B, based in LGA, operates LGA-BOS using a 100 seat plane. I can rent a part of that flight. Lets say 20 seats (15Y, 5C).

I put my own flight number on those 20 seats. It is basically my flight - I have an LF based on my CI, RI, etc. I get to choose my own prices.

To sign a codesharing agreement, I would agree to a price beforehand. Lets say I agreed to pay airline B $20 per C seat and $10 per Y seat. There would have to be some kind of negotiating mechanism in place. Every flight, I would pay airline B $250 ($20 x 5 seats + $10 x 15 seats). Any ticket income I get over than $250 would be my profit.

The codeshare agreement would be renewed every year until a party cancels it. Presumably there would be some kind of administrative fee to have a codeshare agreement in place.

This system would be great because:
1)It allows secondary airlines to create an airline selling seats to a major hub airline without getting squished. They can charge major airlines so that they make a modest profit and they can expand.
2)It allows major airlines to cover markets they otherwise wouldn't be able to serve using their current fleet, and it allows major airlines to avoid the costs associated with additional fleets.
3)It allows airlines to serve routes covered by alliance partners/friends without having to compete.

I don't think this would be too difficult to code, and it would give sami something concrete to show players about the game improving.
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Offline JumboShrimp

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Re: Codeshare
« Reply #18 on: February 18, 2012, 07:29:58 PM »
Bob,

I think that would be way too difficult for Sami to implement, and for players to administer.

The simplest way is to implement it as part of passenger connectivity, where airline you have a code share agreement would act as part of your own fleet.  Then, the only administration on part of the player would be to turn it on or off for another airline.

If airline X is operating route AB
Airline Y is operating BC

Passengers can go ABC.

Airline X collects revenue on AB
Airline Y collects revenue on BC

I think something like code share needs to start as simple as possible, or even be deferred after single airline passenger connectivity is implemented.

Offline BobTheCactus

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Re: Codeshare
« Reply #19 on: February 19, 2012, 11:58:40 AM »
Bob,

I think that would be way too difficult for Sami to implement, and for players to administer.

The simplest way is to implement it as part of passenger connectivity, where airline you have a code share agreement would act as part of your own fleet.  Then, the only administration on part of the player would be to turn it on or off for another airline.

If airline X is operating route AB
Airline Y is operating BC

Passengers can go ABC.

Airline X collects revenue on AB
Airline Y collects revenue on BC

I think something like code share needs to start as simple as possible, or even be deferred after single airline passenger connectivity is implemented.

That is not a codeshare. That is a ticket interline.
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